debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

I agree with Irocz that coward is a harsh word and SunnyP has got a tough argument to win. Great job to both of you though.

One of the problems I have with the belief that Jack is going to cowboy up is the complete lack of character growth. There seems to be no evolution, he's completely controlled by his ego. He loves Kate and needs her around in the same way he needed Sarah. Because they look to him as a hero. He craves this. Juliet actually saw him as he was and liked him anyway.Jack couldn't have a romance with someone who can see him faults and all.

Personally, I think most of the characters are on a hero's journey and Jack is the most obvious hero of the show. Just don't be surprised if his lack of character evolution and the fact that 'he walks among us but he's not one of us' doesn't mean that he might be the one character who doesn't overcome his daddy issues. (unlikely)
Hope, Sawyer didn't steal the inhalers.
And he never withheld the medication. He just saw two crazy mofos called Jack and John and thought the stuff might be better controlled by him.

Alright, so when do we vote? How long do they have to debate?
Confused...

Blonde

the challenge is open for questions for 48 hours, when a poll will be added to decide the winner.


Stitch

If Jack had agreed to go back for Jin, knowing that the freighter could blow at any time, it could have meant death for all of them on the helicopter.
Jin might possibly have jumped off the freighter before it blew up.
Remember in season one ,that Jin did survive the raft blowing up.

So I ask ,was that a cowardly act or an heroic one ?
I think Jack did what he had to, by not going back, and risking everyone on the helicopter being killed.

I agree with you KSJ. And WTF, even if Sawyer didn't steal the inhalers, he didn't give Shannon the inhaler when she clearly needed it. I am not picking on Sawyer, I know you are a die hard fan, but Sawyer was using this for personal gain

Jin was a judgement call, and he's used to making them.

Think back to Man Of Science, Man Of Faith, when the two people from the car crash came in. Both critical. Jack made a judgement call then to ignore one and operate on the other.

The one he operated on survived, and eventually became his wife, Sarah.

The one he didn't help died, and that was Shannon's father.

Jack's a hero to Sarah - is he a coward to Shannon?

Hope wrote:I agree with you KSJ. And WTF, even if Sawyer didn't steal the inhalers, he didn't give Shannon the inhaler when she clearly needed it. I am not picking on Sawyer, I know you are a die hard fan, but Sawyer was using this for personal gain

He didn't have the inhaler

Jin was a judgement call and probably a smart one. But, sorry, the heroic action would have been for Jack to tell Lapidus to leave without him if he wasn't back with Jin in 30 seconds.
We're talking about heroics and reacting to situations heroically. Jack said he was responsible for that flock but he left them scurrying around on the freighter and flew away.

(Aside: WTF, your current Jazz Hands (of doom) avatar is brilliance.)

The terms heros and cowards are both packed with baggage so let's look at this a bit differently. This is for both SP and Hope to respond to.

My dad was a pilot and a WWII veteran and when you talk to many of the men who fought in that war you hear them say over and over that they were scared to death but didn't want to let down their fellow soldiers.

When you hear interviews of astronauts in the early days of the space program they always say that they didn't want to "screw the pooche" their way of saying they didn't want to mess up the mission becasue they made a mistake.

Both of these groups of men are rightfully considered heros and both list their primary motivations as fear. Not screwing up.

So if these guys, doing heroic things but being motivated by fear, are heroes, is Jack, who also seems be motivated by fear, a hero too?

If I save an orphange full of children from a buring building for no other reason than I want to be famous, am I still a hero? Does it matter what you are or if you are a good guy or a bad guy? Sawyer, a con man who has killed at least two people, can arguably be considered a hero because he jumped from a helicopter. Does a heroic act alone make you a hero?

If, by the end of the series, Jack succeeds in saving everyone , does he become a hero again, regardless of how low he sank in the flash forwards?

Finally, "do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one?" Jack said not to go back for Jin (one) to get those on the chopper (many) to safety.
He thought he was allowing Ben to have Jin, Bernard and Sayid shot (few) so that he could have a chance to get the rest of the Losties (many)rescued.

If the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, isn't jack making the tough calls in the above examples and isn't making the tough life and death calls a mark of a hero?

I really do believe that you can not label a person either a hero or a coward on just one decision they may make.We are just talking about Jack here though.

So if you take this one last act of his making the call on whether to try to return to the freighter and rescue Jin, you have only others perceptions of your act as being either heroic or cowardly ?

The whole question of, whether it is better to be a coward or a hero, neglects the fact that not everyone can ,be a hero and regards heroism as something which can be achieved by just about anyone.

To be a hero or a coward is not something which is decided consciously and logically; one either is one or the other, in someone elses eyes.--the logic, reasons, and judgments we pass on it are post factum, in short, merely justifications.

So in my opinion Jack or anyone, can at sometime in their life-time be
either, because in the end isn't it really only what others perceive you to be?

I think Hope and SunnyP, both did a nice job of presenting their case, I just personally do not think it is a case of either black or white. Black being a coward or White being a Hero.

I agree KSJ that nothing is 100% black and white (except maybe the stones in Adam and Eve's pockets)

My question is what truly determines that which makes one a hero or a coward?
If it is by deeds, Jack is a hero.
If it is by motivation Jack is a coward.
If it is by is by overcoming adversity Jack is a hero.
If it is by overcoming personal demons Jack is a coward.

Perhaps this boils down to what is the essence of Jack (sounds like a bad perfume name) Is he at heart, a man who can rise above his fears to do heroic deeds or is he one so enslaved by his inner demons that anything he will ever do is inadequate to make him more than what he is now?

And WTF, your assertion about the lack of character growth is a good one but I think it is only correct up to this point. We still have nearly 40 episodes left and there is no telling what direction his character will take so judging him by his growth (or lack thereof) to this point is, I feel, premature.

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:We still have nearly 40 episodes left and there is no telling what direction his character will take so judging him by his growth (or lack thereof) to this point is, I feel, premature.

Actually MSHL, I think we only have 32 episodes left, but maybe you know something we don't? Maybe you are counting a Zombie season?

Actually I think I heard that they are increasing the last two seasons to 17 per so we have 34 left
(that's 40 if you use new math )

and the zombie seasons are going to be online only...and they will be musicals too!

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:

My question is what truly determines that which makes one a hero or a coward?
If it is by deeds, Jack is a hero.
If it is by motivation Jack is a coward.
If it is by is by overcoming adversity Jack is a hero.
If it is by overcoming personal demons Jack is a coward.

So what your saying is that, to an outsider Jack is a hero. But to himself and those who know him very well, he is a coward.