debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

So an act of cowardice does not a coward make?

If that is the person's only act, yes.
But you cannot judge a person by one action anymore than you can judge a book by just one word.

The poll will be added in about 2.5 hours

Stitch

I have to agree with everyone that said that Jack's fear of failure does not make him a coward - if he ran away from his fear that would make him a coward. (I would argue Sawyer going with Locke to the Barracks was a greater example of someone succumbing to fear than Jack taking 5 seconds before saving someone's life in surgery...)

The great traditional heroes always have a flaw (or hamartia) which is part of what makes them so heroic. Jack's stubborness/need-to-fix/save is his flaw which causes his post-Island downfall.

That said, I'm not sure which way I will vote. I wasn't convinced by Hope's application of Jack's character to the stages of the Hero's journey, but equally I didn't agree with SBP's examples of cowardice from Jack.

Its interesting how often the acts of both Sawyer and Jack are compared against each other to prove a point.(I'm guilty of it). I just wonder if anyone can explain (Im honestly curious) why we compare those two so much instead of Jack and Locke, Jack and Sayid or Sawyer and Ben for example.
Is it because of the Kate factor? I guess it could be in my case.
Maybe its a debate topic in itself.

SBP -- What do you think of the "Jack just had surgery" angle for him not jumping from the heli? Trekking the island was hard enough...but leaping from a helicopter and swimming back to shore? No way Jack can do that. Does being the hero mean that you have to effectively choose death even where other capable adults (Desmond, Sawyer, Sayid, Kate, Sun) may solve the problem with a very low risk of death?

SBP -- As you argued, Jack certainly is motivated, in part, by fear of failure. Question though (i) is his desire to prove he is not a failure his only motivation? Or put another way, do you think that Jack is motivated, in part, by a desire to do good (altruistic motives) apart from his fear of failure? If so, does this not make him heroic? Also, I like the idea that overcoming fear makes one more heroic. Your thoughts?

Hope -- is Jack currently a hero? I think it's fair to say, we perceived him as one once. And, we *MAY* again. But is he a hero now? (i.e. drug addiction, poor "father", leaves Jin behind, deceiver, etc.). If Jack's story arc takes him further into this darkness (never to return), would you still consider him a hero?

Igs wrote:SBP -- What do you think of the "Jack just had surgery" angle for him not jumping from the heli? Trekking the island was hard enough...but leaping from a helicopter and swimming back to shore? No way Jack can do that. Does being the hero mean that you have to effectively choose death even where other capable adults (Desmond, Sawyer, Sayid, Kate, Sun) may solve the problem with a very low risk of death?

I think that if he hadnt of ran off into the jungle after the helicopter right after surgery I would agree with you. He proved that it wouldnt stop him, but only if the end suited his needs. Running off like that was another chance for him to prove who is in control of Jack....Jack. If he really was a hero, it wouldnt have stopped him jumping.

Igs wrote:SBP -- As you argued, Jack certainly is motivated, in part, by fear of failure. Question though (i) is his desire to prove he is not a failure his only motivation? Or put another way, do you think that Jack is motivated, in part, by a desire to do good (altruistic motives) apart from his fear of failure? If so, does this not make him heroic? Also, I like the idea that overcoming fear makes one more heroic. Your thoughts?

I think there are many levels to his motivations, including wanting to do good. But they all come down to the same base motivation to fix things and not to fail. By doing good he succeeds.

Good debate guys, fresh off the plane with a nice debate to read and time to still vote, yah.

I think (as Irocz first mentioned) having this as hero/coward was harsh, we have seen Jack do heroic things many times I have never seen him run away (which is usually how (simplistically) I judge a coward). Even when he messes up his relationships he doesn't run away, he cant let go.

I dislike Jack and I wanted to vote against him but the debate IMO has been stronger for the Hero side, admittedly with a lot more material to use.

I would also say that Jack was not in control of the heli, Frank was. Jack is not Franks leader and Frank was making the decisions.

Hey everyone. Good debate. I wish I could have been more involved. Work was very time consuming the past couple days (I am sure you can relate SBP)

I mentioned earlier that the "coward" argument is a tough one to back up. You have some good arguments SBP and they are well written as always. But as Lojozz said, I also say Hope made the better argument for her side, but with much more material to work with. I have to give my vote to her.

Thank you everyone, I appreciate the kind comments. I just feel bad because Jax didn't have much of a chance to debate her side.

Yes, it would have been better if SunnyP had got more chance to debate.... But it looks like at the moment, Hope is going to be the first to defend her championship sucessfully.

Hi all

We have so far recieved only 12 votes. The poll went up a little late so to allow the alloted 48 hours for voting the poll will close in six hours, 3PM GMT.

Stitch

So if you haven't yet voted then you still have time!

Isn't it 24 hours not 48?

Hey its all part of it, if one side has less chance to debate then that is unfortunate, but I wont be surprised if I lose this one...Hope has argued very well indeed.

I am going to make a last attempt at this though, as even though Hopes argument is a strong one, I still think i'm right

I knew hero v coward was going to be a tough one for me to argue, but a good debate needs to be challenging. You see....I am not afraid of failure. I know that I have what it takes to deal with failure as I have had to do just that many times in the past and have come out the other side stronger, and hopefully a little wiser. This is something Jack has never learned...even now at the end of season 4 he is struggling to deal with his failure. He sinks into depression, drug use, and un-necassary facial hair because he failed. A bigger man, a stronger man, would know that he had failed in his ulitmate promise to get everyone off the island and he would except that he done everything he could.

A coward is not just someone who cowers from danger, not just someone who trembles at the thought of confrontation....a coward can also be someone who is motivated and dominated by fear, allowing it to control them and cloud their thoughts. A coward is controlled by fear where a hero uses that fear and controls it.

So the question is...does Jack control his fear, or is he controlled by it?

Hope's argument about the classical notion of a hero as dictated by the 'hero template' of storytelling is the one I think Jack is being portrayed as.

As such, I vote for Hope. But SBP made a great job of shooting holes in Jack's 'All-American Hero' persona!