Debate - MSBHL V Lojozz - WINNER ANNOUNCED!!!

Ben was WATCHED by the others since birth. How many other potential candidates were also watched. If there is time travel, then future others could see that Locke would become a player on the island. This does not mean that they made him a player as part of some "plan."

And more importantly, It is just as likely (even more likely, in fact) that, if the Others have time-travel ability (which is almost certain through the Orchid Station) that they began to travel back to observe Locke AFTER they became aware of his "specialness" following the crash of 815. I would even venture to guess that Richard Alpert, not the biggest fan of Ben and the ONLY Other we've seen interact with young Locke, discoverd how special Locke is, (after the crash) and went back in time to try to accelerate Locke on his journey to be leader of the Others, thus replacing Ben before he even took over leadership of the others! But this did not work...why? because the universe course-corrects and Locke was not meant to be on the island before the crash.

Those who think that the Others do not have time travel abilities, please remember that Ben asked the Hotel clerk in Tunisa what the date was...AND THE YEAR...just to be sure he was in the right time.

Being part of a destiny does not mean being part of a PLAN...unless it is destiny's plan...which is no plan at all.

As for Desmond's visions, his actions regarding Charlie and course-correction wemust remember this. Desmond's visions were all mostly correct. He forsaw the lightning striking the hut, Claire drowning, the arrow through Charlie's neck and the woman parachuting from the helicopter. He saw these events BEFORE they happened. Only his intervention changed the fact that Charlie was killed. So his visions would have 100% correct if he had not interfered. And even with his attempts to alter destiny, Charlie still died.
Unless Desmond had some plan to get Charlie killed, then his visions and their accuracey must be taken at face value-foretelling the future accurately.
And if this is the case, his attempts to "change destiny" failed...course-correction has worked perfectly and must also be taken as a Lost "law". To say that we can't rely heavily on course-correction is only an opinion, it is not a fact...we have SEEN the course-correction mechanism in action and we have seen absolutlely NO evidence that the island can "alter" or circumvent destiny.

Part of the reason that people want to believe that there is a plan is becasue the idea of destiny can be pretty unpleasent. Destiny means there is no free will, an idea that does not sit well with most of us. The notion that we have no choice over our futures and that fate or distiny dictates what happens to us, regardless of our actions, is horrible idea for most people. But this is the world Lost Presents us with. John Locke himself shouting to the heavens "I have a destiny!" Well apparently he does, and we all know it.

But as I've said before and As I will say again: DESTINY IS NOT A PLAN!

Sorry for posting again.

It seems that something is manipulationg them to get to the island. One example that has popped into my head was that Richard Malkin the Physic guy was a self-confessed fraud. He cleary had a vision or saw something with Claire, why would he have called her, gave the money back ect. Something or someone was putting ideas into his head. Maybe it wasnt true, maybe Claire doesnt need to raise the baby alone, but it was something that got her on the island.

TheHolyStickman

HolyStickMan, if you beleive that Locke was/is destined to be the leader of the Others then you are automatically saying that there is not plan. A plan cannot change destiny, that is why it is called destiny.

Locke is where he is because he is supposed to be there. This is why he didn't go as a child or adolescent or teen. His being there at those ages was not part of destiny. His destiny was to arrive at the island at the right time and place. Destiny is not a plan. it is an series of outcomes that are unalterable by any entity except for an all-powerful God. Destiny is written in stone, that's why it is called destiny.

"This is my destiny..."
--John Locke

We do not know the motivation of Richard Malkin. Was he a fraud? was he a genuine Psychic? Did he have a genuine vision? Was he part of some massive, unwieldy pan to get Claire on the airplane. Who knows?
But without knowing Malkin's motivations, you can't say, one way or the other who or what he was and if he was a part of destiny or a plan.

He neither supports or detracts from either side of the question here. He is an unknown variable which cannot be used in deciding the answer to our main question because there are just too many unanswered questions about him.

Until we find out where he fits in the big picture, we can't say how he fits into the Lost puzzle.

I would even venture to guess that Richard Alpert, not the biggest fan of Ben and the ONLY Other we've seen interact with young Locke, discoverd how special Locke is, (after the crash) and went back in time to try to accelerate Locke on his journey to be leader of the Others,

I don't agree with this so I'll argue against this point. Fundamentally, if Alpert came to realise that Locke was special after he crashed, why bother accelerating it? He's there. He's special. Get on with it!

(And if he did go back and intend to speed the process up, knowing Locke would be special, well. . . he failed. Or changed his mind? Either way, it's pointless.)

And Lozz, the reason I brought up the idea of a what the plan is as an arguing point serves you both. If there isn't one - that is, if neither of you an conjure any kind of plan - then the design argument flops. You don't have design without intent. If there is no intent, there can be no design.

Likewise, if design can be perceived (and Locke is a case in point, and Juliet's recruitment to the Island is a microcosm of the design for intent case) then there must have been intentional planning.

Ok MSHL your starting to sway my opinions, but I didnt mean that
destiny wanted Locke to come to the island, I meant that Jacob/Island
wanted him to. And so if Jacob wanted Locke to become leader he would
have to think it was of his own doing. In a future episode I can see
that Locke will be about to become the leader, then he is told by a
bitter Ben that everything he has done, every decision, every move, It
was all orchestrated by this man. Points at Jacob. Im a bit lost after this, but I know that Lockes reaction wont be good.

At the moment perhaps the most important event that has happened on
the island in the history of the island. It seems that the losties have
an important part to play. Jacks determination, Lockes spiritual
journey, Micheals betrayel. These things seem to fit in perfectly with
the power struggle, if Jack had not been so determined to get off the
island for example, then he might have listened to Ben and not called
the frieties. If these exact people had not came to the island it would
be a very different place.

Also an argument on MSHL's side for once. The interconnectedness, if
the flight wasn planned how to explain the fact that Sawyer was in a
bar with Jacks dad, Hurley was in a mental hospital with Libby, Jack is
related to Claire.
Answer; coincidence, you can put this down to a simple honest
coincdence. Think, have any of these things ever effect anything on the
island, no. Jack didnt know that Claire was his sister, Libby died
before Hurley found out she was in the same mental instutution
(spelling). They dont matter, So if Lojozz you want the play the
interconnectedness card then just think about that.

TheHolyStickman

Lojozz, we can speculate that Malkin is manipulating Claire but we just don't know one way or the other. And the term Manipulation carries with it an almost sinister and, perhaps, unneccessary connotation..perhaps affect is more nuetral term. He may be trying to affect her descision but we have absolutely no idea why or what his motivations are.

AC brings up an excellent point: Intent. We do not know what motivated people before the crash. For example, the island's current intent seems to be the saving of the island and the Losties have become a part of that effort. But this seems to be a course of action set into motion after the crash, not a pre-determined course which involved bringing the Losties there. It involves using the resources (Losties) at hand to meet a specific goal.

Let me paint a picture: People going about their day...the ground shakes, the people run from their houses, look up and see a 777 breaking up in mid-air. The day is Sept 22, 2004 and the people watcing are the Others. Ben tells Ethan and Goodwin "...there may actually be survivors...I need lists in three days..." This painting shows a leader (Ben) thinking fast, making a descision and implementing a plan AFTER 815 breaks up, not before. If there was a plan to bring the Losties to the island, he would already know who was on the plane,he would already know if there were survivors and who the survivors were, he wouldn't need lists in 3 days.

And The point of Des saving Charlie does not factor in as much as you think LJ. We have seen the course-correcting mechanism in play. The minor variations in peoples' actions do not matter, the universe gets back on course regardless of the actions of anyone on Lost. Charlie gets saved but still dies...the freighties are meant to find the island and still do...we have no idea of destiny's course but the universe does and it will get back to that course regardless of any individual actions or deviations.

AC, I don't really Believe that Alpert tried indepenantly to accelerate Locke on his course to island leadership, I was trying to point out that since we have no real knowledge of when Locke became special to the island and whether Alpert's actions were in line with or opposed to Ben's, then we can only speculate as to the reasons behind the actions of those we have seen. And while anyones' speculation is as valid as anyone elses', it is mearly that-speculation.

The interconnectedness that HSM has raised is also an interesting one. If anyone here remembers the Original Star Trek episode "The City On The Edge Of Forever" where Kirk and Spock have to go back to 1930's Earth to undo damage that McCoy has done to the timeline, Spock says something to the effect of, "there is a theory that time is fluid, like a river with currents, eddys..." Kirk Replies, "And the same currents that swept McCoy to this place and time may have swept us here as well.." This seems to be a scientific explanation of Destiny. In other words, certain important events in history act as a sort of magnet, drawing in the key players to the event. The interconnectedness of the Losties before the crash show that these people are important to the outcome of events taking place on the island. This is not something subject to planning.

Jack meets Des in the stadium, Sawyer meets Christian in a bar, Libby and Hurley are in Santa Rosa together. Could these connections be coincidence? Sure, but the dozens of connections between the Losties prior to the crash might also speak of something FAR beyond any plan's capabilities...it speaks of destiny and the universe connecting the dots for us.

I have been to the UK several times. I have never met Lojozz or AC TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Does that mean I have never met them without realizing it? no, of course not. These random encounters between the Losties seems to be on level that seems to almost be tied to the very fabric of existence. That is not something somone can sit down and plan out. If one could do that then they would be as close to being God as one could ever hope to be.

The Losties are where they are because that is their destiny. Every experience and event in their lives has brought them to the same moment in spacetime. This is the point where the island takes advantage of their unique talents, gifts and abilities, even their interconnectedness to further it's own goals.

If we believe that Locke's destiny is to be on that island then we cannot discount the destinies of the other Losties.
"Destiny is a fickel bitch." and she is also an unforgiving one as well. And any plans anyone may make get thrown in the dumpster if she doesn't agree with them.

And as we have seen on Lost many, many times...Destiny rules, plans are only sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Just to follow up on a few quick points:

Lojozz states that Locke has been protected by the island since birth...THis is supposition. as we have only seen him observed by Richard Alpert. No indiction of protection has been shown yet.

HSM observes that Locke may have been cured of his depression and that it might be better for him to not have known that he was part of some plan.
But let me present this scenario to you in regards to that:

Richard Alpert approaches a horribly depressed, wheelchair-bound Locke. He presents him with a proposal to go to a place where he can be more than he is now, where he can fulfill his special destiny. Locke, reluctant at first, is swayed by Alpert's allusions to his specialness in the same way that Juliette is swayed by Alpert and decides "what the hell, what have I got to lose?"
John wakes up on the island surrounded by Alpert and several of the Others.
Alpert says to him, "Get up John."
John looks at Alpert, confused, and says, 'I CAN'T get up...if I could I wouldn't need that damned wheelchair."
Alpert's eyes drill into John and he responds, "Don't tell me what you can't do John...get up."
John Locke tries and finds that he can get up and that he can again walk.

Think that wouldn't cure Locke of his depression? Hell yes it would. It would make him a part of the others and the island. He would be a convert, a believer and it would be a hell of a lot easier than manipulating him onto a plane and crashing that plane onto the island.

MSHL its funny you recently told me you are a lazy man and yet you post 1125 words without reply, given the original debate is only 1000 words thats some going.


Some Quick notes:

I'd already said it was unlikely that it was down to Ben

Malkin either way you cut it (fake or not) manipulated Claire to some end. Manipulation = Plan

You state the island is now using the Losties for a specific goal I find this interesting if they all have their destiny pre-defined.

I already addressed the interconnectedness and as I said before its not involved in my argument and I'm not even going to go near Star Trek.

If Des didn't save Charlie the freighties would not be on the island. Fact. At least 6 people would still be alive and assets to the island.

'Destiny is a fickel bitch' nice quote. Lets have the definition of fickle
1. likely to change, esp. due to caprice, irresolution, or instability; casually changeable: fickle weather.


2. not constant or loyal in affections: a fickle lover.


I like the 'not constant' part. This seems to fly somewhat in the face of course correction.

No evidence that Locke has always been under the islands protection? Hmm lets see, he survives an extremely premature birth, this would be very rare these days never mind back then, not impossible but unlikely. Then he fights off a myriad of diseases which in his weakened state must be considered almost miraculous. Then he survives a miracle fall and these are only the things we've seen. Thats enough evidence for me to believe he is protected.

Your case of Richard bringing Locke to the island is a good one but this would likely make Locke worship Richard and not the island.

Ok now Im gonna flip this a bit because all we need is a plan. Lets dig up Mrs Hawkin I've previously pointed out that if the universe course corrects on its own then why would she be needed?

So lets look at it this way, what if the people with the plan are the Time Guardians (I think AC first referred to them as such, but Im using it). Perhaps Christian is one and brother Campbell another. They know what the future is supposed to be, but because of the island and its anomalies with time, things get screwed up. So the plan becomes to put the right people in the right place to make sure that course correction can do its job. Now they normally do this in subtle ways. But when something like Des being so far back in time that he could actually rip the entire fabric of time which would 'kill everyone of them' they have to step in and be a bit more proactive.

The fact remains that Christian had a hand in four of them (at least) getting to the island and he shows up in Jacobs cabin to tell Locke to move the island. Seems to me like he has to be part of some plan. could he be appearing to Jack in the future because the plan went wrong and for course correction to work he has to go back, they all have to go back. Is Charlie now a time guardian because of the way he died?

So the plan is 'course correction' the Losties were brought to the island to allow it to do its job. They have a new plan and that is to get the Losties back to the island so course correction can try again. That is why Michael cant die he is needed for course correction to work.

Thats 619 words (including these) in case your interested!

Let me throw out two pieces of probability that support either argument.

To support the idea that the crash of Oceanic 815 was not planned:

Oceanic 815 takes off, losing communications and travels over a thousand miles off course. (The pilot's action are suspect, yes, but if he was acting deliberately he was subjecting himself to a plane crash, willingly. That's tough.)

So we've got plane travelling off course that, at the right spot above a hard-to-get-to Island, at that precise time just below we have Desmond not pushing the button. These events occur simultaneously, and highly improbably. The level of co-ordination for, say, Inman to ensure Desmond definitely followed him, and yet made it back in time to barely press the buttons (this, too, cost Inman his life). It's staggering. It's improbable. It's surely a suggestion that there was no plan, just these incidents coincided to produce an amazing coincidence.

To support the idea that the crash of Oceanic 815 was planned:

So there's a guy on a plane that's won the lottery. 4 8 15 16 23 42 were the numbers he used. And guess what? This guy, Hurley, he crashes on an Island (and survives). And on this Island, there's a hatch that's got the 4 8 15 16 23 42 numbers on it. Under which, a man enters this same code into a computer constantly.

The man, Hurley, he was on board flight 8-15. . . I mean, come on! Isn't that pushing random chance? Doesn't that suggest design?

- - - - - -

Unfortunately for Lojozz, working through that last comment has made me come to a strong conclusion that there was no design.

Whilst it may seem beyond coincidental that Hurley with his 4 8 15 16 23 42 landed on an Island that featured these numbers, it's actually logical that he would end up there.

Where did Hurley get the numbers from? Leonard in the mental institute. Where did Leonard get the numbers from? The Island. So the fact that Hurley has a connection with the Island despite never having been there before is completely explicable.

Oh dear.

Still, Lojozz has used Locke as a prime example of design rather than accident - I might sift that around and re-read these arguments and challenge the integrity of that. . .

(Sorry for the long comments, but the act of typing helps my brain work it through.)

Its all part of the time guardians plan they need to help course correction.

What are the chances of 815 being in the right place at the right time without design?

Lojozz:

What are the chances of 815 being in the right place at the right time without design?

For me, better chance than it being design. I can believe in the random incident coinciding to make coincidence better than I can believe in design. . .

Reminds me of that "Don't make coincidence for fate", and vice-versa, that has been phrased in Lost.

But I still think with Locke and Christian there are some compelling tools towards design, so I'm not done yet!

BUt once you add Charlie, Jack, Claire, Locke, Hurley to the plane and then it being in the right place at the right time especially 1000 miles off course with a substituted pilot then what are the chances?