Debate - MSBHL V Lojozz - WINNER ANNOUNCED!!!

Lojozz wrote:

I
think the key word in arguing that the Losties where brought to the
island as part of plan is ‘manipulation’. The definition of
manipulation is ‘Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own
advantage.’ In manipulating somebody or something you are trying for an
end result that will be of benefit, in other words you have a plan to
gain. So every time you see an example of manipulation I want you to
think plan, because what is the point of manipulation if it does not
achieve your goals or your plan.

OK, as Lost progresses we see
more and more of the ‘big picture’ and that big picture seems to
suggest a power struggle for the island. This power struggle seems to
be between two sides black/white good/bad call it what you will. What
matters is the fact that certain people are protected by the island,
Michael can’t be killed, they all miraculously survived a plane
breaking up in mid air. I believe that these people (who have this
protection) have been manipulated onto the island to play a part in
this struggle. Somebody or something has brought these people here as
part of a plan to gain control of the island. Now at this point we
don’t know who or what is responsible for this plan, it could even be
the island manipulating them to set itself free, until we see more of
the picture we will not know, but just because we don’t know the plan
doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

So lets look at the way some of
our Losties got onto the plane and consider the fact that they have
clearly been manipulated into the positions that got them to the
island.

First off lets look at Christian Shepherd the man
equally at home in Jacob’s cabin as he is appearing to his son in the
future, long after his supposed death. Christian seems to be in some
way responsible for at least four of the Losties getting to the island.
Jack went to Australia to collect his body, Ana Lucia went to Australia
as his body guard. When Sawyer was having doubts about killing Duckett
it was Christian who told him to ’take care of business’ or end up like
him. This gave Sawyer that last little nudge he needed to kill Duckett
and ultimately end up on flight 815. Christian also made Claire believe
that her mother was already dead, a fact that we now know must have
been greatly exaggerated, this belief that her mother would not be
around to help must have played some part in Claire’s decision to go to
LA and give up the baby.

These are four examples of Christian
in some way manipulating people to be in a position to be on flight 815
and we still don’t have the full picture, how many more of the losties
I wonder did Christian appear to, just at the right time to tip their
fate the 815 way. When we see Christian with Claire in Jacobs cabin it
is clear that he is a major part of the mystery of Lost and when that
is coupled with him being in the right place to manipulate at least 4
of the lead players to the island you have to consider that this is
part of some plan.

Now lets turn our attention to Locke, this is
a man that seems to have been under the islands protection from the day
he was born. Helping him survive premature birth, a myriad of childhood
diseases and a plummet from an eighth storey window (that we’ve seen so
far). It would seem that it has always been part of ’a plan’ for Locke
to be on the island. If it was just destiny for Locke to end up on the
island then why would Richard have gone to test young Locke, why would
Richard try to get Locke to attend Science camp, why would Abaddon feel
the need to tell Locke to go on a walkabout. I’m not saying that it’s
not Lockes destiny to end up on the island just that people have been
manipulating him as well. Once you have manipulation then you have a
reason for manipultion which is to achieve an end result which in turns
means a plan.

So Locke gives us evidence that the islands
protection is not just something that happened by chance when they
crashed, it would seem the people on the plane already had this
protection. Add this to the examples of manipulation and you must start
to see something resembling a plan.

I am aware that all of the
points made can be shrugged off with ‘there’s no way that the
manipulator could be certain that things would work out as they did,
too much could go wrong’ and this is all true, or at least it would be
with any other show. This is Lost a show that gives us Ben, the man who
always has a plan, the great ‘Benipulator’ he seems almost infallible
at times in his manipulation. So we have to question what part of the
picture do we not yet see. How is it that Ben is so good at
manipulation? Time Travel? I don’t know and it doesn’t matter, I only
have to argue that the Losties are on the island as part of a plan, I
don’t have to describe the plan or know what it is, I don’t even have
to know who’s plan it is. All I need to know is that there has been
manipulation to get the Losties on the plane. Once you have
manipulation you have a goal and the only way to achieve that goal is
with a plan. I have shown five examples of Losties in some way being
manipulated, 4 of them by the same man, this is not down to fate or
coincidence it is clearly part of a as yet unknown plan.

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:


Was the crash of flight 815 planned and was it part of a plan to bring specific people to the island? Every plan must
have a goal; the reason for implementing the plan in the first place.
The goal of crashing 815 could only have been the delivery of the
Losties to the island.. But was there a plan? I believe there was not.
In fact, with all of the nearly-uncontrollable variables involved in
getting even one of our Losties on flight 815, I do not believe that a
plan of such scale would even be possible.
Even if we limited this
plan to just key people (Jack, Locke and Hurley) the short answer is
still no. It’s simply impossible to cause all of the necessary events
needed to bring that group of individuals to the exact right spot at
the exact right time. Accounting for all the possible outcomes of
actions intended to influence even just one person to be on 815 strains
probability far beyond it’s breaking point.
In Jack’s case, for example, let’s look at what had to happen to get him onto 815.
A
woman’s injured in an auto accident. Drunk Christian Shephard is called
while in a restaurant to operate on her even though Jack’s closer. CS
botches the operation. Woman dies. Jack turns in Christian. CS loses
his license. Goes to Australia. Drinks himself dead. Jack’s mother
convinces him to go after CS. Jack finds him and then convinces the
Oceanic employee to let him take his father’s body home against policy.
The plane has mechanical difficulties, turns back and disintegrates in
mid air near the island. Jack is thrown from the plane and SURVIVES the
fall!
Hurley‘s variables are similar. He has to buy a winning
lottery ticket. Multiple disasters must befall him. He has to find the
origins of the numbers, fly to Australia…etc. Additionally, if he
oversleeps just ten more minutes or encounters only one more obstacle
on the way to the airport, he misses the flight.
John Locke’s case
is the most incredible since one of the variables involved in his being
on 815 is his injury---falling eight stories, snapping his spine and
surviving!
Even if Jacob/the island wanted JUST Locke, there are
many better ways to get him there without risking his life in the
air-crash. Richard Alpert could have visited Locke and given him some
line about his destiny; “…you are meant for more than what your life is
now.” Locke, already susceptible to the ‘you have a special destiny”
spiel, would’ve jumped at the chance to go to the island.
Also
remember that Ben, while recovering from surgery, questioned Locke
about his regaining the ability to walk. He asked if Locke’s ability to
walk again returned gradually or if he could walk again right after the
crash. So Ben, the Others’ leader and the only one who communicates
with Jacob, had no knowledge of any plan to bring anyone to the island.
He was as surprised by the 815 crash as the rest of the Others. And if
no person or “entity“ on the island had prior knowledge of the coming
crash, there is only one possible conclusion: There was no plan!
Any
plan involving the Losties/flight 815 would be one created AFTER the
crash. People on the plane who served Jacob’s/the island’s needs were
“on the list” and those who weren’t were allowed to die after the
crash---a crash, as we’ve seen, that was accidentally caused by
Desmond’s lack of button-pushing action, not by some complicated plan.
In
the past, the Others have taken people who were on the plane because
they were “good people.” i.e.: people that Jacob/the island could use.
This is improvisation, not a plan! Ben admitted that most of the Others
were brought to the island and I think we can take him at his word
since we saw Juliette recruited by the Others. She was brought there
for a purpose and bringing her there did not involve some complicated,
convoluted plan with countless, unforeseeable variables that could ruin
everything. It was a simple, straightforward recruiting effort that,
after being adjusted to suit the motivations of the recruit, would have
worked for anyone that Jacob/the island wanted.
“But Jacob has the
power to do all of this!” Nope, afraid not. The power to anticipate a
nearly-infinite number of variables and influence their outcome, is so
close to God-like that Jacob wouldn’t need anyone else to pursue his
goals. He could act autonomously without assistance. And to say
something like: “Well Jacob/the island can do these things but he is
hampered by (insert excuse here)” is merely an artificial limitation
imposed for drama‘s sake. You can’t be both all-powerful AND limited.
Of
course, this argument hinges on Jacob/the island being behind any plan
to bring down 815 and therefore, bring the Losties to the island. But
what if it’s someone else- Widmore, Paik or perhaps Dharma? That’s even
less likely because:
1. The ability to manipulate billions of
variables to get even one person onto 815 without their knowledge of
the manipulation is far beyond the capabilities of any
person/organization. Its like long-range weather predictions-There are
far too many variables involved with each changed variable causing the
variables following it to also change in unpredictable ways.
2. Why would any person/organization bring someone to the island (Locke) who would work against them? They wouldn’t!
Regardless
of how we feel personally about the “Mystical” aspects of Lost, we must
all acknowledge that any explanation of any event seen on the island
requires a scientific explanation, no matter how incredible the science
or even if we don’t understand the science involved. If ignored, Lost
becomes nothing more than fantasy with no rules, reasons or results
beyond “it‘s magic.” ; Lost isn’t Harry Potter with palm trees.
Acknowledging
these facts, we can only conclude that flight 815’s crash was NOT
planned and any attempt to use the Losties for Jacob’s/the island’s
benefit occurred after the crash.

Lojozz wrote:

Why not just bring the Losties there, well I would posit that the losties are not supposed to know they are part of a plan. Perhaps the plan relies on them not knowing about the plan. That ties quite nicely to how Ben manipulates. If Widmore or Paik or whoever just kidnapped all the losties and plonked them on the island their behavior would be very different would it not?