The Cerberus - Autonomous or Controlled

Caged_Faraday wrote:
And I just can't fathom an all-powerful demon with some-sort of soul-scanning ability wandering the Island

He's not a demon, thats just being mean.

TheHolyStickman wrote:

Caged_Faraday wrote:
And I just can't fathom an all-powerful demon with some-sort of soul-scanning ability wandering the Island

He's not a demon, thats just being mean.

I meant not to insult Cerberus. My appologies. OK, I just can't fathom an all-powerful creature with some-sort of soul-scanning ability wandering the Island...

Much better

I wonder how you detirmine how many days are left in a poll.

Caged_Faraday wrote:
My personal interpretation: without being at the "helm" of the Cerberus, he simply had to leave it on "autopilot"... he couldn't control it personally, with any attention, and therefore it's actions were not as deliberate.

But if as you say, the monster was on auto-pilot. Then surley it must have at least some intelligence. If was completely manually operated then it wouldn't be able to move without control.

Caged_Faraday wrote:

That brings question to you. If it is an intelligent creature with specific knowledge of the anti-Island intent of its victims, why oh why didn't it get Keamy... or even manage to hurt Keamy... and instead mangle a couple of his flunkies? Your "intelligent karma-driven creature" really dropped the ball that time.

I never said it had any knowledge of the anti island crew. I said that I thought it could tell who was good or bad to some degree before scannig them fully. For all you know the one who was attacked was the worst one. But, as I said earlier, I dont think the smoke monster is designed to fight, I think it is a police system. And if it is all powerful I think it wouldnt interfere with human warfare unless it was absolutley neccessary.

Caged_Faraday wrote:To boost the story of the lie. A controlled Cerberus can chase and not kill Juliet and Kate, thus padding Ben's lie, and making Juliet that much more convincing.

But still this is a big risk. And a man such as Ben who "Always has a plan" wouldnt risk this when so many things could go wrong. If smokey was a magnetic field it could accidentaly injure Kate or Juliet. Kate could blame Juliet for it. It could be released at the wrong time and attract the losties. And we know it forced Juliet to undo the handcuffs. Also in the last scene of this episode Ben goes through the whole plan.

JULIET: I know what to do.
BEN: Let's go over it again, just to be sure.
JULIET: I drag Austen out into the jungle, handcuff myself to her, then tell her I was gassed just like she was.
BEN: And if she catches you in the lie?
JULIET: I'll admit to it. Tell her it was the only way to earn her trust.
BEN: Good. What then?
JULIET: They'll take me back to the beach.
[Scenes and audio now overlap with Juliet tying her tarp. She [color:3dee=#00CC33 ! important][color:3dee=#00CC33 ! important]watches all the survivors as they go about their daily lives]
JULIET: I know you want me to go there, but after everything we've done to them, its going to be a problem.
BEN: We've activated the implant in Claire, she should be
symptomatic in the next 48 hours. By the time you get to that camp,
you'll have a nice big crisis to solve.
JULIET: I'll need supplies.
BEN: Pryce is already on his way. He'll hide the case at Ethan's
old drop-point. Tell Jack, that you can save her. He trusts you. Are
you alright?
JULIET: [Pause] I'm fine.
BEN: [Hands Juliet a gas mask] See you in a week.
[Juliet pauses, then takes the mask. At the beach, Juliet ties part of the tarp sharply, with a cold look on her face]

Your saying he forget to mention that Cerebus will be chasing them. Not likely.


You also said that Cerebus killed some of the bad guys but left Keamy. A number of things could be used to explain this. And if Keamy had been killed then there be no threat in the finale. Keamy was left alive for dramitic purposes and the writers will wriggle there way out of it.

Finally, whilst Jack was with the others for the majority of season three, Ben said something like this.

I couldnt kill you Jack because that would be against my word and then my people would get rid of me. And I couldnt let you go because then my people really would want to get rid of me.

He then goes on to explain how Locke blowing up the sub was his ticket to freedom. But clearly Ben wanted Jack dead or he would lose his position as leader of the others. So why not just send Jack out beyond the fence with a couple of others and then kill him using the trusty Cerebus. Maybe he could injure a few others to make it seem more realistic. Then his problem would be solved and he wouldnt have to rely on luck. That is if he had control of the smoke monster.

TheHolyStickman

When the series ends we are going to find out that Smokey is the ghost of Jacob's dog, or some sort of futuristic version of Vincent.

TheHolyStickman wrote:But if as you say, the monster was on auto-pilot. Then surley it must have at least some intelligence. If was completely manually operated then it wouldn't be able to move without control.

An airplane has an autopilot, are you going to argue it to be sentient, too? Many things can be given "automomy" without having intelligence.

TheHolyStickman wrote:I never said it had any knowledge of the anti island crew. I said that I thought it could tell who was good or bad to some degree before scannig them fully. For all you know the one who was attacked was the worst one. But, as I said earlier, I dont think the smoke monster is designed to fight, I think it is a police system. And if it is all powerful I think it wouldnt interfere with human warfare unless it was absolutley neccessary.

So you argue it was less sucessful against Keamy and company because of the "rules" it must obey?

TheHolyStickman wrote:But still this is a big risk. And a man such as Ben who "Always has a plan" wouldnt risk this when so many things could go wrong. If smokey was a magnetic field it could accidentaly injure Kate or Juliet. Kate could blame Juliet for it. It could be released at the wrong time and attract the losties. And we know it forced Juliet to undo the handcuffs. Also in the last scene of this episode Ben goes through the whole plan.

Your saying he forget to mention that Cerebus will be chasing them. Not likely.

Not forgot. Chose not to. Makes Juliet (who's generally a bad actor) far more believable.

TheHolyStickman wrote:You also said that Cerebus killed some of the bad guys but left Keamy. A number of things could be used to explain this. And if Keamy had been killed then there be no threat in the finale.

Keamy was left alive for dramitic purposes and the writers will wriggle there way out of it.

So you're justifying the nature of the creature on an element of story writing?

TheHolyStickman wrote:Finally, whilst Jack was with the others for the majority of season three, Ben said something like this.

I couldnt kill you Jack because that would be against my word and then my people would get rid of me. And I couldnt let you go because then my people really would want to get rid of me.

He then goes on to explain how Locke blowing up the sub was his ticket to freedom. But clearly Ben wanted Jack dead or he would lose his position as leader of the others. So why not just send Jack out beyond the fence with a couple of others and then kill him using the trusty Cerebus. Maybe he could injure a few others to make it seem more realistic. Then his problem would be solved and he wouldnt have to rely on luck. That is if he had control of the smoke monster.

Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

Juliet didnt know, did she. So I'm guessing as she's pretty senior that the others dont.

I voted both because when Ben did control it, it just blew some dust up around Keamy's men and gave them a few bruises. Every other time Smokie comes in contact with someone, it gets pretty violent.
And the three smaller ones that come togther to form the bigger one(one that killed Eko) seem to have an intelegence all their own. Maybe even that of Judge, Jury, and Executioner. It does seem to leave alone Alperts crew, the "good" ones.
And if Dharma could have controled it, why the sonic fence to contain it?

TheHolyStickman wrote:Juliet didnt know, did she. So I'm guessing as she's pretty senior that the others dont.

Juliet?!? She's been lied to more times than Jack. I don't really see her as a respected and in-the-know member of the others. If anyone knows about Ben's use of the Cerberus, it would be Richard, Tom, Isabelle (R.I.P.), Ethan (R.I.P.), etc.

Lateralus wrote:I voted both because when Ben did control it, it just blew some dust up around Keamy's men and gave them a few bruises. Every other time Smokie comes in contact with someone, it gets pretty violent.
And the three smaller ones that come togther to form the bigger one(one that killed Eko) seem to have an intelegence all their own. Maybe even that of Judge, Jury, and Executioner. It does seem to leave alone Alperts crew, the "good" ones.
And if Dharma could have controled it, why the sonic fence to contain it?

It seems both may be the winner. If so, I have to defer to TheHolyStickMan, as that still falls in his arguement of an intelligent creature. Now I just have to figure out when the poll ends.

As I keep thinking about the Island as "the silent character" of the show, in my opinion Smokey is nothing but one of the Island's manifestations of its powers. It's not a sentient being by itself; it's something like "the Island's arm". It grabs, and it pounces, and it "feels", but only because the Island makes it to.

So there's the explanation for my vote. Good work, both of you.

I just double checked. Poll should close at 14:30 EDT on Sunday. Few days left to vote.

OK you havent given me much to go on here, but I'll try.

An airplane has an autopilot, are you going to argue it to be sentient, too? Many things can be given "automomy" without having intelligence.

Damn!

So you argue it was less sucessful against Keamy and company because of the "rules" it must obey?

No, not neccessarily rules just that it knows that things will only get worse if it interferes when it's uneccessary.

Not forgot. Chose not to. Makes Juliet (who's generally a bad actor) far more believable.

You sidestepped my point, I was saying that Ben wouldnt risk the whole operation just to make the story slightly more believeable, which it didnt.

So you're justifying the nature of the creature on an element of story writing?

Well, I think I am yes. You have to think how the producers think. An episode with smokey in would be good for a comeback and give us more info about it. But they have to keep Keamy alive because they need a dramatic finale. So the writers will already have a reason why it didnt kill Keamy.

Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

We dont know what the rest of the others know, so we cant argue this point any further.

TheHolyStickman

Ill try and give some more ideas for you to counter soon I just need to gather my thoughts first.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Not forgot. Chose not to. Makes Juliet (who's generally a bad actor) far more believable.

You sidestepped my point, I was saying that Ben wouldnt risk the whole operation just to make the story slightly more believeable, which it didnt.

Absolutely I think he would. There are no limits to that which we call Benipulation.

TheHolyStickman wrote:So you're justifying the nature of the creature on an element of story writing?

Well, I think I am yes. You have to think how the producers think. An episode with smokey in would be good for a comeback and give us more info about it. But they have to keep Keamy alive because they need a dramatic finale. So the writers will already have a reason why it didnt kill Keamy.

I think the drama written in -- the decision to leave Keamy so he can pop up in a later scene -- bears no merit on the nature of Smokie. Creature or machine, smokie failed to get Keamy because the writers wanted it that way. I think it becomes a moot point.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

We dont know what the rest of the others know, so we cant argue this point any further.

We don't know most of anything we theorize on. I assume Ben's control over the Cerberus is not hidden knowledge. He revealed it to Locke & Co. I would believe those "in the know" of the Others would know as well. I think his going dowstairs and flipping the Cerberus switch is very significant to the point that the Cerberus is simply a device.