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penny widmore

Post by retroactiveman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:30 am

After disposing of Keamey's team, Ben still moves with urgency to move the island.

This urgency of Ben, (e.g. throwing the waste can into the chamber) strikes me as inappropriate, considering the true threat was wasted.

I posted (on another site) that Penny may be Ben's true target in "Ben as game theorist".

I also suggested that by the end of S4, she would actually be on the island. This was obviously wrong. But I don't think that it was too far off.

She wasn't too far from the island, she couldn't have been more that few miles away.

Maybe the urgency with was because of Penny.

We dont know who Penny is. But Ben, who knows exactly what he needs to know about everybody else so far introduced to the show, probably does.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:27 am

That would mean Ben knew Penny was looking, and was close enough to get to the Island. . .

I don't buy it.

Sticking with your game analogy, by this stage Ben had thrown in the towel. (Re-watch the episode Cabin Fever and Ben's petulance towards, and comparisons of himself to Locke.)

Ben knows Locke is taking over. He knows Jacob has cast him out. He started getting suspicious the moment he got a tumur. And then Locke heard Jacob speak and so Ben shot him, as a test, and his test returned postitive. Locke survived and Ben knew his time was up.

He killed Keamy and allowed, potentially, everyone on The Freighter to die. And he didn't care at all. His game was up.

(It's only at the end of the episode, with Locke's deathly return, does it seem Ben has a renewed purpose and a sense that a return to his place on the Island might still be possible.)
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Re: penny widmore

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:20 pm

Also given Alex had just been killed would Ben not of been quite happy for Penny to get to the island so he could take his revenge?

I do agree though that something doesn't add up about him moving the island as he did. The freighter was blown up and all the Merc's killed, its supposed to be a last resort but the imminent threat had been eliminated.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:22 pm

Lojozz:
The freighter was blown up and all the Merc's killed, its supposed to be a last resort but the imminent threat had been illuminated.

You meant "eliminated".

And I think the fact that The Freighter and Keamy were gone didn't detract from the fact that the Island's whereabouts were now known.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:25 pm

I know and i'd edited it before you posted that.

Yeah but to get another team out there would have taken weeks, why not take a few hours to give John a proper 'Hand Over'
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:49 pm

LJ - hence my phrase "Ben's petulance".

"I hope you're happy now, Jacob", he also said (if that's not a precise quote, my apologies, but it's from memory).

Very much the spurned and hurt person, and not taking it well. So whilst he knew Locke was the new person, and that he had to give it up, he certainly didn't want to make it easy for him. (Indeed, maybe he hoped that Locke would make a mess of it and so pave the way for him to return?)
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Re: penny widmore

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:57 pm

'Whoever moves the island can never return'. He said 'I hope your happy now, Jacob' at that point because he knew that the act of moving the island was banishing him. He was upset because he was losing his beloved island but, he is prepared to do it for the good of the island so why wouldn't he be prepared to help John for the good of the island.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:03 pm

Well, as I have indicated above, I think he was clued-in to the idea that he was losing the Island a long time before that. (Seriously, watch Cabin Fever again and Ben's whole demeanour towards John is one of jealous spite and resigned defeat combined. In hindsight he makes a lot more sense.)

And why help the Island? Well, why kill Keamy at the cost of all the lives on The Freighter. Ben's reply was telling: "So?"

Maybe that was just good command decisions being compromised by bad emotional responses. . .
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Re: penny widmore

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:36 pm

I have watched them again, yesterday in fact I watched the last 4 episodes before the finale and yeah I agree that Ben knows he is been replaced but he's know that since John showed up and threw the knife into Naomi.

If he was just being petulant and was jealous of John why not let John move the island? He knows that the best thing for the island is for him to move it, and regardless of how he feels he does it for the good of the island. The only point I'm trying to make (not even make, agree with) is there was no rush. The logic just doesn't seem right to me. He's prepared to sacrifice him being on the island but not to spare and hour or two.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:49 pm

He couldn't let John do it. John didn't know how and, besides, Jacob was basically throwing Ben off the Island. Hence Jacob giving Locke the message yet not explaining how it should be done.

And so Ben had to do it. He didn't like it. His crying, pained face tells us that. But he had to. So he did it, fulfilling what Jacob wanted of him, but he certainly didn't want to bother making it any easier for Locke.

(Why the rush? Maybe because there was nothing else for it. Locke went to The Others and they would tell him all he needed to know. He Ben turned up, hanging around, the likes of Alpert might have simply regarded him like a bad smell. "What are you still doing here, Ben? Don't you have something else to be getting on with?" And the simple fact is he did. It was the only thing left for him to do.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:58 pm

John didn't know howto do it? I don't think that would have taken too much explanation. Err John go through the hole smash some ice and then when you see the big wheel thing turn it.

If Ben is so jealous and bitter he could easliy have made Locke a patsy and if Ben is telling the truth then Locke could never return to the island.

If Locke can never come back to the island then Jacob may have to put his trust back in Ben.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:27 pm

Are you just being deliberately obtuse over this matter to somehow reflect Ben's obstinate attitude to Locke?

Ben could not have made Locke a patsy. Jacob had spoken. If Jacob is as good as God, what you don't do is try and pull the wool over God's eyes or go against His wishes. That's a one-way ticket to a smiting.

Ben was done. Jacob had decreed it. And he didn't like it, but he had no choice. I literally don't know why this is so tricky for you.

Mad
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Re: penny widmore

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:38 pm

We dont know Jacob is a God and as we're still to even see him I think you are making some rather large assumptions.

Are you forgetting Ben always has a plan?
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:41 pm

I didn't say Jacob was a God, but it's clear his word is to be obeyed. And "he is not a very forgiving man".

And Ben's plan may very well have been to ensure Locke was given as little as possible from Ben so to increase his likelihood of failure.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:45 pm

So what your saying is the rush for Ben to get off the island regardless of the fact that the danger was passed was to leave Locke in the shit.

So you are saying there is another reason for the rush which is what I've been trying to say. Good. Glad we agree.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:53 pm

This, people, is why conversations with Lojozz are sometimes less preferable than, say, a nice chat with a brick wall.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by MollyCocktail on Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:25 pm

Every time folks get sentimental about Penny and Desmond, I am reminded of Mrs. Hawking's words: "They only great thing you'll ever do is go to that island and push that button".

Is Penny in trouble?
Yes.

Will Ben kill her?
Call me evil, but I hope so. Why? Because it will make for some wickedly delicious Widmore revenge.

But I feel certain of one thing: Penny and Desmond were never meant to be together, at least not in this life/timeline.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by nino_1 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:53 pm

very valid point retro good observations

and i tought this was another debbate between AC and the king
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Re: penny widmore

Post by treesitter on Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:18 pm

Lojozz wrote:I do agree though that something doesn't add up about him moving the island as he did. The freighter was blown up and all the Merc's killed, its supposed to be a last resort but the imminent threat had been eliminated.

This is were I want to put some of my thoughts into play. (Well, I have to give credits to a theory The Island vs. Evil by Celine which greatly influenced me in typing this.)

I agree with Lojozz, that something doesn´t add up. The threat is gone. And although the whereabouts of the Island may be revealed (which certainly isn´t something the Island wishes) a rush of moving it isn´t necessary.

I think within the whole chaos the Freighter folk raised the main goal of the movement is getting rid of Ben.

AngeloComet wrote:Jacob had spoken.

Had he? It wasn´t Jacob who gave the order. Christian Shephard did: "I can speak on his behalf."

Christian convinced John that he´s the chosen one. With his faith in the Island´s goodness all John wanted was to save this „place where miracles happen.“ Christian took advantage of it and indicated the last resort in saving it was moving the Island. But he gave no instructions of how that must be done. Therefore it was Ben´s obligation.


And don´t forget about Claire. The evil smile she shared with Christian and the suggestion „It´s probably best that you don´t tell anyone that you saw her.“ made me assuming it all was part of a hidden plan: The manipulation of Ben himself and him leaving the Island.


He thought the orders with which John returned were given by Jacob.


AngeloComet wrote:Jacob had decreed it. And he didn't like it, but he had no choice.


From his point of view
it´s all adding up:


His time as leader has come to an end.

He is supposed to be replaced by John Locke.
Someone has to move the Island... and in doing so, is banished from it.
He no longer stands high with Jacob.

Well, although he certainly was dissapointed by his new destiny he always believed in Jacob and his greatness ("he´s a great man.")

AngeloComet wrote:... it's clear his [Jacob´s] word is to be obeyed. And "he is not a very forgiving man".


So, he (Ben) followed the instructions. He never found out, that these weren´t Jacob´s instruction, hence the „I hope your happy now, Jacob“.


My guess is that Christian is working for another entity. Something / someone who´s goals aren´t in the Island´s best interest.


Remember Hurley´s encounter with the cabin. We saw a relaxed Christian rocking in the chair and opposed to that a frightend eye (I assume it was Jacob´s). Maybe that was the last attempt of Jacob calling for help. After that he was replaced by the evil entity.

Getting rid of Benjamin Linus is something Widmore clearly wants. And thanks to Christian his wish is answered. So, is Penny´s father the evil entity?


On a sidenote:
The baby is were he´s supposed to be.“ are Christian Shephard word´s spoken to John (in Cabin
Fever
). Claire leaving Aaron behind is what leads him to get off the Island an being raised by someone else. That´s the absolute opposite to Malkin´s vision.


Richard: „This child parented by anyone else, anyone other than you... danger surrounds this baby...“
Claire: „Danger?“
Richard: „Your nature, your spirit, your goodness, must be an influence in the development of this child.“
Claire: „Look... if... if Thomas and I don't, ya know, get back together I... I'm putting this baby up for adoption. I just wanted to find out what would give the baby the happiest life.“
Richard: “There is no happy life. Not for this child, not without you.“
Claire: „I don't give it...“
Richard: „It can't be another. You mustn't allow another to raise your baby.“

For me: It clearly suggests that Aaron has to be raised by Claire on the Island. Christian, however, distracted her. He is the reason that Claire acted contrary to Malkin´s vision. The prophecy will now come true. Danger will surround Aaron and maybe everyone else.

Kate´s dream in There´s No Place Like Home: The voice on the phone told Kate she has to go back. I believe that was the Island talking (like the Island in „a place where miracles happen“). And again a contradiction by the evil entity: Claire said „don´t you dare bring him back“. Good vs. Bad.

As I already said, the chaos was used to get rid of Ben. After he leaves John leads the Others. But as we know Locke is someone who easily can be manipulated and isn´t always capable of seeing the big picture. His orders now are coming from Christian and not Jacob. He is influenced by the evil entity. A force everybody remained on the Island has to deal with.

Ben was the last one who could have realized the danger. Now, that he is gone, it´s no surprise that „... some very bad things happened.“


Last edited by treesitter on Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: penny widmore

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:29 pm

Good stuff, Treesitter.

I have been ticking over similar thoughts - that Christian and Jacob may not be on the same page at all - and you've done a nice job of clarifying that idea.
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what would suggest the game is up

Post by retroactiveman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:43 pm

After Ben "move's the island", does Ben appear in Tunisia?

If yes, what would suggest he ever stopped strategized or stopped planing his taking of the island.

Did Ben not put everyone that he needs for the return on the helicopter, in the air and not on the boat?

He does seem resigned, but he never stops playing. Evidence of this is his ridiculously cut and paste justification to Locke of why he killed Keamy, is rational response to explain his momentary irrationality.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by treesitter on Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:22 pm

Of course he never stops playing. It´s Ben we´re talking about.

He believed the instruction of moving the Island was given by Jacob. He had faith in him and the Island. Surely he could have let him down and refuse to do the job. But he fears the consequences of rejecting a command. He did, what he was told to do.

But as you said Ben is a strategist. He leaves the door open with helping the O6 getting of the Island. The acceptance of the deal between Kate / Sayid and Richard Alpert to let them go is him buying a return. He is simply coming from behind.

Ben is a good player. He accepts a defeat (turning the wheel) and puts his pawns (the O6) in order to get back on track. Benjamin Linus is not a quitter.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:33 pm

Okay you two, you're upsetting the childen.


"If he was just being petulant and was jealous of John why not let John move the island? "

Ben might have been able to manipulate Locke into doing what it takes to move the island but do you really think jacob would have allowed that to happen.

ben is emotionally crushed at this point. His whole life has been ruined and he can never come back to his home. He has been rejected by his people and his master and he had just watched his daughter executed right in front of his eyes.

Maybe he just plain wants to get it over with, to separate himself from the pain and humiliation of his current circumstances.

A bit urgent? Yes, granted, but he has been in "urgent mode" since the mercs attacked the barracks.
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Re: penny widmore

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:40 pm

Interesting, Treesitter. But if this were the case, CS not representing jacob, do you think that Jacob would have allowed Ben to follow throught on moving the island if that's not what he wanted.

If CW isn't speaking for Jacob, then the island moved with Jacob's tacit approval.

If CS does speak for Jacob then the island is moved just as he wanted it to be.

Same result either way.

But the possibility of CS being an opponant of Jacob does speak to the dualing opposites theme of Lost. Good -v- evil, light -v- dark, science -v- faith, One white stone, one black stone.


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Re: penny widmore

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:40 pm

I can see how Angelo and Lojozz keep themselves busy during the lost breaks
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Re: penny widmore

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