Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

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Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:40 pm

Given that we have seen Ben teleported from the island into the desert some time in the future. We know that if somebody has been exposed to high levels of EM then they can suffer from side affects in coming and going to the island. Ben would presumably now qualify as having been exposed.

Ben no longer knows where the island is, which is perhaps why he said whoever moves the island can not come back. It could be that simple. The island moves and he is teleported off so he no longer knows how to find it and is in the same boat as Widmore. Even if he did find it he would very likely need a constant to get back onto the island because he would no longer know the correct bearing.

Perhaps Alex was his constant and the rule that was broken/changed was you can not kill a constant. Penny is Desís constant so this would also work with Benís revenge.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:44 pm

Rubbish.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by Lojozz on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:47 pm

Thanks for the constructive comment AC
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:51 pm

You're welcome.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:03 pm

Would you care to elaborate AC?

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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by Lojozz on Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:13 am

SBP i doubt he will but what are your thoughts I kind of like this idea.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:02 am

Well this is one time I agree with a constant theor (other than Desmonds) and one time I disagree with Mr Comet. Thats right I am disagreeing with Angelo Commet.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:20 am

Its interesting!

I think your spot on about Ben not being able to get back because he doesnt know where it is now...it makes sense to me. It would also be a perfect rule breaker for Widmore to kill Bens constant and prevent him going back....but we have the problem that Alex has never been off island and wouldnt that be a pre-requisite for being his constant?

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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by chirpey1987 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:52 am

yeh and there would be many other constants for ben like richard and windmore's could be desmond maybe that why he ended up on the island.

But then again didn't somebody's constant have to be somebody they truly cared about, oh am contradicting myself
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by Lojozz on Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:03 pm

A constant has to be something that one truley cares about in both timelines. Penny has never been on the island but was able to be Desmonds constant, as long as Ben had some way of connecting with Alex in both timelines then there is no problem about her location.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:26 pm

ah yes I get ya now Smile

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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by Shamballa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:02 pm

I think you are right on the money Lozz. AC is just talking out his keester again.

Remember AC...

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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by JacksEyes on Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:37 pm

Mr Friendly, Alpert (and others) can travel on and off the island. If Ben knew that he would not know where the island was if he moved it, then he would pre-arranged to meet one of them (say at Mittelos) and they would tell him.

And therefore AC is correct.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:14 pm

Just so everyone is clear, I contacted LJ shortly after leaving my comment here to inform him that I had left, what I considered to be, the funniest comment I've ever made for someone's post.

He agreed, admitting he had burst out laughing at work when he saw it.

Naturally, I wouldn't dream of leaving such remarks for anyone else. But for LJ I make an exception, since this is tame compared to the abuse that can be hurled between us face-to-face.

Besides, this post was rubbish so I wasn't exactly being unjust. Heh heh!
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:34 pm

Once again would you care to elaborate as to why this is rubbish, Angelo.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:33 pm

It's rubbish because all theories concerned with people having a Constant (beside Desmond and, at a push, Faraday) are rubbish.

Yes they are.

Ben didn't travel in his head. He physically moved in time. A Constant is all about the reconciliation of one mind coping with two simultaneous time frames. Ben is not experiencing that. He physically moved and has nothing to reconcile. He doesn't need a Constant.

And I think Ben knows where the Island is. How could he be confident Widmore wouldn't find it if he didn't know where it was hidden? It could have been moved into Widmore's back garden for all he knew! And how does he intend to get the O6 back there if he doesn't know where it is?

He knows, he was just prevented from going back there for a reason we don't know.

And if the rule is you 'cannot kill a Constant' then Ben is wasting his time trying to kill Penny.

I'll look forward to that plot thread, AngeloComet sarcastically remarked.

Oh but the rule's changed. So Constants can be killed now? Is that what you're going to say? That's super! Only everyone on the Island could have potentially been a Constant for someone else - and plenty of people on the Island died before this apparent rule change. Ergo Constants can be killed, ergo the rule change wasn't about them.

Besides isn't the notion that "Constants can't be killed", in the cold light of day, if you just look at it for what it is. . . Isn't that just really, ah. . . rubbish?
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by solarchap on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:43 pm

Jackseyes has made a good point, that Ben could have arranged to meet through Mittelos, but I also like Lojozz's simplicity of not being able to go back simply because you don't know where it is.

It seems to me Ben has every intention of going back to the Island, so that part would work for me, but I don't believe he needs Alex to do it.

The part I am most uncertain about is the constant, and I would wonder who Charles Widmore's constant was? Killing Penny would certainly mess Desmond's constant up, but (other than losing his daughter of course) how would that affect Widmore i.e. constant-wise?

Great pic Shambs.

AC has also made some very good points which can't be neglected.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:50 pm

-


Last edited by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:51 pm

AngeloComet wrote:It's rubbish because all theories concerned with people having a Constant (beside Desmond and, at a push, Faraday) are rubbish.

Yes they are.

Ben didn't travel in his head. He physically moved in time. A Constant is all about the reconciliation of one mind coping with two simultaneous time frames. Ben is not experiencing that. He physically moved and has nothing to reconcile. He doesn't need a Constant.

Lojozz didnt say that he had already moved in the head. He was exposed to elecromagnetism when he moved the island with the wheel of fortune. So if he didnt go back on the correct bearing he could potentially have a Desmond-Like experience.

AngeloComet wrote:And I think Ben knows where the Island is. How could he be confident Widmore wouldn't find it if he didn't know where it was hidden? It could have been moved into Widmore's back garden for all he knew! And how does he intend to get the O6 back there if he doesn't know where it is?

He knows, he was just prevented from going back there for a reason we don't know.

And if the rule is you 'cannot kill a Constant' then Ben is wasting his time trying to kill Penny.

I'll look forward to that plot thread, AngeloComet sarcastically remarked.

Damn!

AngeloComet wrote:Oh but the rule's changed. So Constants can be killed now? Is that what you're going to say? That's super! Only everyone on the Island could have potentially been a Constant for someone else - and plenty of people on the Island died before this apparent rule change. Ergo Constants can be killed, ergo the rule change wasn't about them.

Besides isn't the notion that "Constants can't be killed", in the cold light of day, if you just look at it for what it is. . . Isn't that just really, ah. . . rubbish?

Ok you win.


Last edited by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grrrrr)
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by Hope on Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:17 pm

I agree with LoJozz's simplicity about why Ben can't go back. It makes perfect sense. The whole 'constant' thing though really has me thrown. I really enjoyed that episode of season 4, but I am still confused. Alright I get it a little, for desmond and penny; not anyone else. the show would have to explain.

Although now that I have thought about it, if the likes of Richard and the others wanted Ben back, wouldn't Mittelos Bioscience be the perfect place to start. Just saying for the sake of argument.

But when I was reading it, I really liked it and I still do. Not everything has to have a complicated explination.
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:07 am

It's simpler than all of this. I think Ben can't go back becasue Jacob says so and, as we all know, Jacob is a fickle bitch
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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:40 am

I don't know if your being sarcastic or not there MSHL, but that fits. Its simple, will stop Ben getting on the island, and he might be let back on if he reason with Jacob that he can get the O6 back to the island.

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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:54 am

I really think its even simpler than that....he cant get back because he doesnt know where the island has gone too!

He said "whoever moves the island cant come back"...not "I cant come back".

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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:09 pm

SunburnedPenguin wrote:He said "whoever moves the island cant come back"...not "I cant come back".

Yeah, that's the point. Can't come back. It's not a question of "not being able to find the Island", 'cause the Losties, and Desmond, didn't know where the Island was and they've spent some time there...

Can't come back.

Moving the island is dangerous, unpredictable, and a measure of last resort, says Ben. It's something you do when you're in deep shit --pardon my French. So maybe the penalty for being such a crappy leader is exile from the Island. Can't come back. No matter if you find it.

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Re: Another stab at the rule change and why Ben can not go back.

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:03 pm

Again, I don't think Ben's ignorance is what stops him from going back. If he doesn't know where the Island is then it's hard for him to accurately claim that Widmore will never find it. In that respect, I don't think he's ignorant of where the Island went.

So, where does that leave us?

I like Occam's take on it. That, as Island Leader, if things get so dire on the Island that the thing has to be moved it means he made a bad job of leading. So, for making such a mess of things, he is exiled and can't go back.

I like that.

It also explains, since he left and Locke took charge and apparently things went even worse, why he thinks he has a chance of being allowed back to take over again. (And also explains his belligerent attitude in not giving Locke much information or help as he handed the baton over, so to speak.)
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