reach out and touch faith

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reach out and touch faith

Post by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:10 am

Im trying to develop a historical perspective to the show... my inspiration is the intense and awesome posts of Caged_Faraday's and Lost_Dbutz ("the butts" or "debuts"?) who reside in the scientifc wing of the website (and I thought that the science posts would cease after Ben called out DI's "silly experiments").

In an earlier post I suggest that utilitarianism is the founding point of the society that we live in...when the island moves the foundational point of the world we live in moves.

I called it the "world's mind". This is a stupid and confusing phrase, as Angelo's Comet pointed out. Better would be to suggest that we are, being products of enlightenment thought, constantly in relation with the foundational point, in dialectic with the foundational moment, that this foundational moment has cast its own idols, its own myths, which we live within. We can't think outside of the enlightenment. For you Americans out there, it is like thinking of law outside the "Constitution"; can't do it. Whatever, that is a future post.

Along these historical lines...

Treesitter posted a comment the other day suggesting, among other things, that Christian did not have the authority to speak for Jacob (leading to Ben leaving the island and bad things happening).

This is a really interesting comment obviously (and just briefly saying so doesn't do justice to treesitter's post which was quite elaborate and extremely well liked by no less than those superstars Angelo's Comet and Lojozz).

Disclaimer: I am not Jewish nor Christian.

Is it a disgustingly gross stereotype to say that the old testament (Jewish) God, is a more distant, detached commanding God?

We never see Jacob, Jacob operates in the dark. Our only moment with him, was in confusing flashes and fear in his cabin.

Does the Christian model provide personal access to god?

It would be really interesting if the Christian personal access model was actually misleading, obscuring access to real truth, as treesitter suggests.



That is all, please mark as not a theory.


Last edited by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:44 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by StitchExp626 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:15 am

Hi Retroactiveman

I am really positive that Jacob, whoever or whatever he is, isn't a god. How religions depict gods I guess is their own business, I am pretty sure that Lost is not about showing us God.

How Jacob operates and the truth behind this very mysterious 'character' is one that will be given some light in the coming two final seasons of Lost.

I do not think this website is really an appropriate place for discussions that focus on how religions describe Gods or what attributes they give their God or Gods. This forum is about theories that are about the television show.

A site dedicated to religion may be a better venue for discussions on religions.


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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:48 pm

Stich, I dont know if Jacob is a god. Maybe he symoblizes Jewish access to god rather than Christian. I think that is fair game for discussion.

I dont know why religion would be off limits when the show makes obvious references to religion, especially themes of faith, which is inextricablly bound to religion. Im a non believer, but it is interesting to note how religion operates.
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Lateralus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:50 pm

I think for all practical purposes, Jacob is god of this TV show. There is soooooo many multi-faith references in the series its almost silly.
Why not create a character that emodies all aspects of all religions and call it God in this show? Then give him his own garden of eden(island) and disciples(others), and may even its own spirit made flesh(Locke), and be he shall be named Jacob.
***choir sings***

and how about that "God loves you as He loved Jacob". That always reminded me of JOHN 3:16 "For God so loved the World..." yada yada


"I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors..."


Last edited by Lateralus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:28 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by StitchExp626 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:06 pm

retroactiveman,

There are many obvious sources that the writers of Lost draw on to provide us with clues as to what the story of Lost is about. We have seen how literature, philosophy, science, religion and political theory have been alluded to in order for us to develop a deeper understanding of what the show is about.

In a recent podcast Carlton and Damon suggested that people keep on reading the bible. We have many biblical allusions, simply from names like jacob, Isaac, Benjamin and Aaron. We have seen other religious symbolism from religious statues to the spirituality of Mr Eko.

I think in terms of biblical references we should consider and discuss them and their relevance to the show. Just as it is important to consider why Lewis Carrol's Alice in Wonderland is also important to the writers and why they have made many allusions to that book.

However I think discussing a particular topic such as how Judaism represents God is not an issue that has been touched upon on the show. It does not help us understand the show but it does run the risk of offending people. Questions like this are better debated on forums that discuss religion. A rabbi would be much better equipped to deal with that issue.

If you are really interested in how religions operate then that is good, but it is not a topic that is suitable for discussion on a Lost website. There are so many different religions, sects and cults in the world, and I am sure that they have within them just as many different views of the world as in the broader population.

Discussions of religious elements in Lost is perfectly fine, discussions of particular religions, how they operate and how they present images of their God(s) is not.

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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Shamballa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:12 pm

Well said brother Stitch.

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Okay...

Post by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:51 pm

Well said. Well said. How religions depict their Gods is their own business.

Exactly. its their BUSINESS, how religions provide access to god.

I guess I'll just ignore they have a character named CHRISTIAN SHEPARD dissemenating the order to move the island, who is speaking for (and by speaking I mean just that directly communicating in a personal way) for a figure who happens to share the same name with the patriarch of the 12 tribes of israel, one of whose tribes was the tribe of Benjamin. Also, I'll forget diaspora parrelles between Ben and the island.

Because like you said, the show has not addressed it.

I must being seeing things.


Last edited by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:11 pm

Finally, if my comment would make anybody angry, it would be that I am suggesting, that CHRISTIAN shepard, by exploiting his agency, is the malevolent force, leading the flock down the wrong direction.
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by puchita on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:23 pm

did not mean to post here...... sorry!


Last edited by puchita on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:33 pm

Or as Ben would say "Well, John, I wasn't being entirely truthful."
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Caged_Faraday on Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:10 am

retroactiveman wrote:Well said. Well said. How religions depict their Gods is their own business.

Exactly. its their BUSINESS, how religions provide access to god.
To classify all religion as a business is unfair, reasonably inaccurate (within a world view), and potentially inflamatory to any who consider themselves even the least bit spiritual.

retroactiveman wrote:I guess I'll just ignore they have a character named CHRISTIAN SHEPARD dissemenating the order to move the island, who is speaking for (and by speaking I mean just that directly communicating in a personal way) for a figure who happens to share the same name with the patriarch of the 12 tribes of israel, one of whose tribes was the tribe of Benjamin. Also, I'll forget diaspora parrelles between Ben and the island.
Religious elements are, yes, obviously a compent of the story. As such, references and inferences to these elements are more than appropriate in this forum. However, debate regarding religion itself, and statements questioning the validity and/or superiority of any particular religious sects, are both inappropriate, and pontentially offensive to many.

retroactiveman wrote:Because like you said, the show has not addressed it.

I must being seeing things.
I'm sarcastic. I appreciate sarcasm... possibly more than sum. Using it to debase the suggestions and input of the moderators as to what we deem appropriate on this site is neither funny nor appreciated.

No one wants to be heavy handed, but we must keep to certain guidelines to insure that the opinions of some do not offend others. Please respect that, so we may all share this space to discuss, debate, and share in our common love of LOST.

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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Lateralus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:14 am

To be fair, religions aren't a business. Churches are business. A god dosen't exploit people for money. A church will.
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Shamballa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:23 am

To really be fair, most religious institutions (let's not single out churches please) aren't businesses, at least in the eyes of the law. That is why they aren't taxed.

What people want to do with their own money is their own business.

Not all religious institutions are "bad" and not all are "good" and everyone has their own opinion about this topic.

We should probably leave it at that and move on...

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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Lateralus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:32 am

Yeah, thats an argument that can get way out of hand.

I still can't buy beer on Sunday though. Speration of Church and State my pimply arse.
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Shamballa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:43 am

LOL! The Hoosier State has the same dilemma.

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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by retroactiveman on Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:50 am

I would never make any comments re which religion is better. I was really just observing characteristics of Christian Shepard and Jacob, and making associations suggested by their names.

Oh well, guess I'll drop it.

Quick question though; can I still do all the wikipedia research I want on ancient religions icons and symbols of sanskrit origin, and post my findings on this site?

Just wanted to make sure that was ok.
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Caged_Faraday on Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:00 am

retroactiveman wrote:Quick question though; can I still do all the wikipedia research I want on ancient religions icons and symbols of sanskrit origin, and post my findings on this site?
I've never seen any sanskrit yet on LOST, but factual comparisons between any religious tenant or iconography and LOST is perfectly fine. I just hate to see anything that can be construed as judgment on any religion.

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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by Lost_Dbutz on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:03 pm

Well retroactiveman, thanks for the reference that my post helped to inspire this thread.

The show Lost is more of a character show than anything, so the writers have referenced many things that help people find solice in their lives, one of which is religion. All religions are referenced in Lost, not just any one, but so many other things are referred to.

That's about as much of a religous debate I will have.
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Re: reach out and touch faith

Post by retroactiveman on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:21 pm

Sorry this got out of hand.

I was just trying to make assocations between the names of Jacob and Christian Shepard; the fact that both of them communicate in different ways; and finally the fact that one seems to succeed the other (hence the historical perspective).

That is all, no debate. Nothing more than observations.
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