The Black Rock

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The Black Rock

Post by Irocz28 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:59 pm

Sorry if this is already common knowledge amongst you Lost enthusiasts.

But, I guess we know now how The Black Rock got so far inland on the island. The island must have moved a long time ago and it must have moved right to where the Black Rock was sailing at the time.

My only question is that wouldn't the island have had to physically come underneath the boat for this to work, or come from underwater I guess is what I am asking? If it just moved "in time" and appeared at another spot instantly wouldn't it kind of crush the ship.

If this was in fact how the Black Rock came about on the island, I am just wondering how it happened. Was it an instantaneous 'pop', with the island appearing instantly and the ship stranded in the middle of it? Or was it a sea-shaking, island rising out of the water, really dramatic event?

For TV purposes, I think the island rising out of the water thing would be cool, but I don't know how they could explain that. I guess the more realistic (and I can't believe I am calling this realistic) is the island appearing instantly with the boat in the middle of it.

What do you all think?
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by shambala on Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:39 am

That's a good question. From my point of view, the way that the Island disappeared suggests that it travels through time via wormholes, which would also help to explain the wheel used to initate the move (rotating the wheel opens the wormhole). If this is indeed the case, perhaps the Black Rock had been sailing over the precise spot where the wormhole opened on the other side.

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Re: The Black Rock

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:32 am

Yeah. . . I still struggle in my head to grasp the actuality of an Island appearing and disappearing. In the middle of an ocean with nothing around, OK, I can see it.

But when a boat is there, where the Island shows up, and the boat ends up on top of and in the middle of the Island!? HOW!?
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by SomeArztOnYou on Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:26 pm

Obviously there was a storm on the seas that was just strong enough to hoist a ship onto land - over trees and rocks and such - yet not so strong as to damage the ship. How is that difficult to believe?
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:34 pm

Arzt - you're talking about one BIG wave there. . . I mean a wave that is MILES long and incredibly high.

You're talking about a monster-sized tsunami that the Black Rock managed to be on the crest of. . .

Yeah. I find that hard to believe. (And from a Lost production special-effects perspective, it would be an expensive bitch to portray!)
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:39 pm

From Wikipedia, regarding 'Mega-tsunamis':

"Mega-tsunamis" were first hypothesised by geologists searching for oil in Alaska in 1953[3].

On 9th July, 1958, an earthquake of magnitude 7.7 (Richter scale), caused a block of rock and ice to drop into the deep water at the head of the fjord Lituya Bay. The block fell almost vertically and hit the water with sufficient force to cause a surge of water approximately 524 meters high. A wave with initial heights of about 333 metres travelled along the bay, and flowed over low hills at the entrance to the bay. Howard Ulrich and his son, Howard Jr. were in the bay in their fishing boat when they saw the wave. Ulrich tried to get over the wave and he and his son amazingly survived the wave, and reported that it carried their boat "over the trees". Another boat actually rode over the tsunami in the bay, and one was destroyed by the tsunami.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Irocz28 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:09 pm

Lets say hypothetically that it was "one big wave" that carried the Black Rock so far inland. Then how is it that the ship is not very damaged? To me, it looks like its in near perfect shape, given the fact that it has been sitting in the jungle for over a century.

These ships were not made of steel. If a wave picked up a ship, carried it miles inland, and dropped it onto land, it would most likely be destroyed when it hit ground. If not totally destroyed, I think we can all agree that it would be in a lot worse shape than The Black Rock is.

I'm almost sure that The Black Rock ended up so far inland due to the island moving. I don't think they would bring up such a great mystery in the show only to have it solved by a "mega-tsunami".


Last edited by Irocz28 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spell error)
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:19 pm

Iroc, I agree with you. But looking up potential alternative explanations got me to that mega-tsunami business.

I'd be derelict in my attention to objectivity to dismiss it!
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Lojozz on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:25 pm

We have to consider the dynamite that was on board as well, would that not of gone off?
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:03 pm

LJ, to be fair, I think it's the age of the dynamite that has caused it to be so volatile and unstable.

When those sticks were fresh you could juggle with 'em and still not wind up in bits, Arzt-style. Therefore the slam-bang of the Black Rock should not, I am guessing, have set the dynamite off.

I still don't see the Black Rock surfing on a giant wave to the middle of the jungle, though.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by BlackRock on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:11 pm

I like this topic.

Lojozz, Dynamite (Nitroglycerine suspended in a binder) is fairly stable when first manufactured. Over time, the nitroglycerine "sweats" from it, which is what causes it to be unstable and dangerous. At the time of the Black Rock's crash, the dynamite would not have gone off without a fuze or blasting cap. 200-odd years later, it's a different story.


http://science.howstuffworks.com/question397.htm


Edit to add: Beat by seconds.

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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Irocz28 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:17 pm

I know you were just looking at alternate explanations AC. I was moreso replying to the comment from SomeArtzOnyou. I just used your "mega-tsunami" terminology because I liked the sound of it.

And I too am having trouble grasping the idea of the "pop! Island instantly appears literally out of nowhere" idea. Like I said, I think it would be awesome if next seasons premier starts with the island rising out of the water somewhere, maybe from right underneath another trading ship.

But, this is also unlikely given the fact that there are people on the island. Sawyer and Julliette for instance were right on the shore when the island moved. If the island came from underwater, wouldn't they drown or something?
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:42 pm

Drown. . . or get rinsed off. . .

Or maybe that Island Bubble is like a giant invisible shield.

It's be like a giant underwater aquarium - with Juliet and Sawyer on the beach on an underwater Island, looking at the marine life swim past this invisible plexi-glass-like Island container.

That would be realistic!

Wink
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Shion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:45 pm

Well... we all agree that Black Rock is there cause the island moved in time and appeared in the same place where the ship was.
I had the same doubt u have about it (how the Black Rock is in the middle of the island? The island just pop there?!), but I think theres plenty ways to explain that in the show... Like.... they can just show the Black Rock sailing, and then a storm comes from nowhere, and subtely they crash in a tree... and theres land above them... something like that.

What Im trying to say is... yeah thats a persisting question... but maybe irrelevant... the important thing is : the island can move thru time and space instantly, and thats why tha Black Rock is there.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Irocz28 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:52 pm

HaHa.... I have forgotten what realistic (in Lost) even means anymore after watching an entire island disapeer.

.... or maybe it was when i saw a 'smoke-monster' destroy Keamy and crew.

.... or maybe it was when i saw a crippled man walk again after his plane crashed from thousands of feet in the air.

.... or maybe, ahhh, you get the point.

Shion, you may be right. That might have to be the answer we will have to settle for: The island moved to the same place where the Black Rock was sailing at the time. Period. That may be all we get from the producers.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Shion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:58 pm

U get the point Irocz Very Happy
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Lateralus on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:11 pm

I think when we first saw the Black Rock back in Season One, the whole point was to have a vessel that would allow Dynamite to be on the island. Dynamite that Locke needed to open the hatch. I think the writers needed a scene where Locke was about to open the hatch, Hurley saw the numbers and tried to stop Locke… But how… Hurley trying to stomp out a lit fuse of dynamite works great in that respect. It seems that would be simpler, in TV terms, to execute that than Locke making and even bigger trebuchet and Hurley trying to stop that.

Now the afterthought, after having the show continue past one season, is the question "What’s it doing here, and how did it get here?".

From the Lostpidia.com Canon, we learn that at the auction scene where Widmore buys the Black Rock journal, the date they give for the disappearance is 1845. I think this has to be chalked up to a mistake by the writers, because dynamite wasn’t invented until 1864.Then, we are given the year 1881 for the Black Rock’s disappearance in the “The Lost Experience”, that according to Lostpedia is part of the shows official canon.
So now the ship disappeared twice?

I get the feeling that the Black Rock is going to turn out to be something like Danielle Rousseau. She was the only other person the losties met, and her back story was that she had been stranded for 16 years yada yada yada… we all know it. Now they bring Time Travel into the mix, and Danielle’s story and Horace’s story and Kelvin’s story don’t add up. They kill Danielle and Karl and her daughter Alex. Now that whole arc is wiped away with their death. We don’t have to worry about them any more. “Stop thinking about it” they say. Now Alex becomes more of Ben’s daughter than that of Rousseau’s. We won’t have her claiming birthrights anymore, just Ben. That gives Ben motivation for the next season. His revenge against Widmore for his daughter’s death, not Danielle’s. (writer’s strike strikes again)
I think ignoring it just makes writing that much easier now that they have a definite timeline in which to finish the show. Less loose ends to tie up.

And I would like to add that a **poof** island appears beneath the ship, would be a clean explanation in this show, if we here to hear about it again.


Last edited by Lateralus on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:23 pm

Now they bring Tim Travel into the mix

Now that's a great name! It's got Lost character written all over it!
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Irocz28 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:32 pm

HaHa. Yeah when they brought that mo'fo into the mix it threw everything out of whack. He crazy.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Lateralus on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:46 pm

Sorry professors, I hope that doesn’t count towards my final grade.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Caged_Faraday on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:57 pm

AngeloComet wrote:
Now they bring Tim Travel into the mix

Now that's a great name! It's got Lost character written all over it!
No, AC, you've got it all wrong. Tim Travel is the concept of driving 35 or more miles to get coffee from Tim Horton's Doughnuts. MollyCocktail and I do it regularly with no fear of paradox.

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Re: The Black Rock

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:41 pm

I'm leaning towards the Lateralus idea that this was just a kinda cool thing to show, a ship in the middle of a jungle, with no real plan to explain it.

The show runners have said that most, but not all, of the island mysteries will be explained eventually...maybe this is one of the not most.

Is it possible that a sailing ship could ride a massive wave into the middle of an island and survive with not much damage? Sure its possible. Just like everything else we see on Lost is possible...smoke monsters, living dead, time travel and island relocataion via a frozen wooden wheel in a cave.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Irocz28 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:06 am

Yes MSHL, anything is possible on Lost. But, the idea of a wave bringing the ship to the middle of the island is a strictly rational, scientific explanation that has nothing to do with the island and its "powers". So I don't think you can compare the "wave" feat to the likes of a moving island or the living dead, which are direct results of the island's "powers".

Unless, of course, you are saying the ship was tossed by a giant wave, Smokey caught the ship, and gently rested it down on the island surface completely intact.

I think I would have an easier time buying that explanation. HaHa.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by retroactiveman on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:39 am

"Rational" and "scientifc" dont mean the same thing.

Both are rational given the context of the show.

They are comparable in that you are simply asking about cause, based on effect.

Even thinking about this show reeks of Hume.
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Re: The Black Rock

Post by Caged_Faraday on Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:21 am

The problem I'm having with the island's time travel being the explanation of the location of the Black Rock is its vertical position. If the island suddenly popped into being where the boat happened to be, the boat would be at sea level (actually, it probably drafts 8 feet, so at its lowest point, 8 feet below sea level). That point in the island has to be at least a good 10 feet above sea level, if not more.

When the island popped into being at the same place as the ship, most if not all of the ship would have occupied the same space as the island. Even ignoring that matter can't occupy the same space, the ship would be mostly, if not entirely underground.

The only way it would work right, is if the island rose out of the sea, as I believe was suggested. That's cool for a very dramatic look, and solves the physics, but it doesn't make much sense... and would really suck for the 75 or so people who would drown when it happened. Sad

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