where did failsafe des go?

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where did failsafe des go?

Post by solarchap on Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:37 am

I just watched 'flashes before your eyes' again, (after watching 'The constant' first) and I have two small queries...

So when Des turns the failsafe key, is it the same as in 'the constant' i.e. that his consciousness goes back in time?

coz in 'the constant', the 1996 Des ended up in future-Des wondering what the hell was going on, so if future-failsafe-Des swapped with 1996 Des, then where did 1996 Des goto when he turned the failsafe?

are there any posts which discuss this?

second point, may be nothing, but I only picked up on it this viewing, Charles Widmore said to Des that his Foundation was running the round-the-world yacht race, and I thought 'what foundation?', has it been mentioned, would he mean Hanso? or is it just a word?

cheers
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by TheHolyStickman on Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:35 am

I think foundation is just a word. But in the lost experience they said that The Hanso foundation and Widmore were linked the DHARMA.

And interesing about Des. I think that it was more of a series of flashbacks, just more vivid than most of them.
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:34 am

I wrote a good (I think) explanation of Des' time travel antics on L-T and, I think, in my blog too.

I can't access my blog whilst I'm at work, though, so can't check. But if I have, I'll post it here.
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by Lateralus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:32 pm

I still can't fugure out how a huge chunk of island can go away in the explosion, implosion or whatever, and Des walks away only missing his undies.

I can only guess that maybe Des was somehow teleported a tiny bit durring the failsafe kaboom. And in that instant he saw his memories of his life flash before his eyes... but he could change it.... it was when he decided that he would do the same thing all over(join the Army and leave Penny) that he was put back on course and onto the island.
When he turned the key, I think he was given the chance to never take the steps that would lead him to the island. Desmond at that instant was given the power to alter the universe and change the future history of everyone he has come in contact with. He chose to repeat the past. He could have gone back to Charlie and told him, "I know you brutha, dooint get on theh plane, dooint get on theh plane!" And if he did, maybe Charlie would never have been on the island for Des to have to save from lightning and such.
But...
Awwwww.... I need to go watch that again now.


My brain hurts!!
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by solarchap on Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:51 pm

Cheers guys, maybe i got it wrong a bit, in that failsafe des merely 'flashed' in a strong sense as opposed to consciousness swapping, you have to admit though, it's bloomin complicated! LOL!

AC I will check your post on LT a little later, I must have missed it somehow, but thanks thats great to know it's there.

Latters......
missing his undies.

very well put!
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:37 pm

I've posted my thoughts on here. . . 'Analysis Of Mind Time Travel'.

I'd link to it, but I'm too lazy.

It's in BIG theories section,
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by solarchap on Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:55 pm

posting checked and praised! good job AC!
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:49 am

Hey Solar,
I wrote a fairly looooooooooong theory on LT about tachyons (particles which can only travel faster than the speed of light) and how they relate to the crash of 815, time-shifting and Desmond

It may help...or it may just be shameless self-promotion on my part
Very Happy
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:LoX5Ox4WgVQJ:lost-theories.com/theories/2008/mar/11/em-pulses-tachyons-gravitons-a/+lost+theories.com+tachyons&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

The crux of the theory relating to Desmond is this:

How does this relate to the breakup of flight 815 and the other various oddities as seen on Lost? Well it would explain how the aircraft broke apart without causing the negative effects of an EM pulse on electronics. It wouldn’t directly explain the skies turning purple when Desmond turned the failsafe key in the Swan Station but we know that such an event would not be caused by an EM pulse! It could explain the “whispers” and visions experienced by the Losties as they could be auditory and visual manifestations from different times encroaching on the present. Since these manifestations seen by more than one person they are not hallucinations but must be real. Whether they are from the past or the future, they could be explained by a particle which moves differently in time than particles in our universe do.
Also explained would be Desmond’s apparent time-shifting. If it was a tachyon pulse emitted when he turned the failsafe key, he was at ground zero and subjected to the full force of the phenomena. As a result, his consciousness may have time-shifted. Since tachyon particles might only move backwards in time and are less capable of physically transporting an object, then they could fully explain how Desmond’s consciousness, but not necessarily his body, was able to move back and forth between time periods. He was most strongly affected by the time-shifting when he first turned the failsafe key and was also then affected even more strongly when he was flown through some type of storm when traveling to the freighter. In this occurrence, however, he was also apparently physically transported in time which could have compounded his reaction and caused the severe disorientation and (let’s call it) time-travel sickness. In effect, he would be suffering the effects of a causality violation. His current consciousness was communicating with a future one which then temporarily “overlapped” or took over his current one.
I also believe that a tachyon field may be responsible for the amazing healing powers of the island by, perhaps, moving a sufferer to an earlier energy-state or even an actual physical state before the condition existed. For example, Locke’s body move back to a state before he had his back broken or Rose’s body moves back to a time before she developed terminal cancer. While I find this less plausible than a tachyon pulse bringing down flight 815 it is a possibility to be considered
The anomaly once under study by those at the Swan Station apparently emits some type of time-altering field around the island and since no current known form of radiation, electromagnetic or otherwise, can explain it, the next logical and scientific candidate would be a tachyon field. I think this fits nicely into what we’ve seen on the island and unless we evoke magic or some other pseudo-scientific explanation, tachyons are our best fit/best guess so far to explain the varied phenomena we‘ve witnessed.
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by solarchap on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:51 pm

Cheers MSHL, Very interesting stuff there indeed.

I'm not so sure about the whispers, I'm thinking if Tachyons are the mechanism by which they occur, then I would expect them to be a bit more random. Whenever we hear them, it's when one of the characters hears them in the jungle mainly, never on the beach, and if memory serves, once in the Swan (Duckett) & once in the Hydra (Christian).

So I would want to know I suppose how Ducketts voice ended up in Tachyonic form, or why the whispers/Tachyons are only hard in certain places.

You got me thinking about the purple sky and Tachyons as well, but it made my head hurt, so I'll tell you and you see if you can expand it for me!
Ok so you know all about Redshift/Blueshift right, well purple is not blue but is very close to blue in the electromagnetic spectrum, so could your Tachyons somehow be responsible for a Swan-imploding-time-shifting-visual-blueshift? i.e. making the Island catch up with n amount of space-time?

I liked the causality violation I think that works.

I am open minded about the healing, but I would need more evidence of the mechanism.

I am certainly up for the Tachyon field as candidate for certain things, but more info is definitely needed!

What I am thiniking is about the mechanism of tachyons, I take it you are saying that tachyons are paritcles which interfere with other matter/energy, and this rasies an interesting point....

If they are and do, then surely, just like the particles which go through the double slit experiment, tachyons would also be indinstinguishable i.e. you can't tattoo an electron like Feynman said!

I can't remember who said this, but it was regards this very business :"I Awoke one morning and all of my stuff had been stolen, and replaced with exact duplicates!"

So any quantum event which is indistinuishable from any other quantum event leads to decoherence, and fits in nicely with parallel realities, which would mean in one sense Tachyons are indeed a good candidate.

But if John wheeler was right then the Tachyons are just a manifestation of a SINGLE electron zippin back and forth weaving the tapestry of our amazing uni/multi/ultra-verse!

Some veyr good ideas MSHL, thanks for the heads-up!
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:55 pm

solarchap wrote:Where did failsafe Des go?

Nowhere, dude... didn't move an inch.

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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by solarchap on Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:38 pm

you are right Occers, It should be 'where did failsafe dessies mind go!'
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by Occam on Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:52 pm

Nope, Solar Dude. Des' mind didn't jump on "Flashes", believe me. Desmond "time travelling" in "Flashes" and "The Constant" are not two occurrences of the same event, nor two occurences of similar events.

"Flashes" was an induced dream. "The Constant" was "mind travelling".

Bear with me for a moment. On "Flashes", the whole point of Desmond's "trip" wasn't to make him turn the failsafe key. He already did. The whole point was to make the "course-correcting Universe" concept sink in Desmond's mind.

Why? Because if Desmond believed in "course-correction", he would believe in his "flashes". Therefore, he would believe nothing could be really done to save Charlie. He's given two "samples", but the third one was the charm. Charlie had to die. If Desmond --and of course Charlie, given Desmond had saved him twice-- didn't truly believe in the need for Charlie to die, the Looking Glass wouldn't have been disconnected, or it would but too late.

The Island needed the Swan out, so It "operates" Eko to make Locke doubt about the purpose of pressing the button. It succeeds, and the Swan is off. Then It "operates" Desmond to get rid of the Looking Glass, just in time for the Freighter to be contacted. Coincidence? I don't think so...

That's why I keep saying Desmond didn't go anywhere, not even his mind did.

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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by AngeloComet on Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:34 pm

Occam, for me, calling it an induced dream might have had a chance at being right just after the episode had aired.

It would stink, mind, because anything that's all a dream stinks, but it had a chance at being right.

But since we've seen the actual phenomena take place, it renders the idea that the first time was a dream obsolete does it not?

Again I come back to this one question. It's the question I ask myself whenever presented with any new theory. It's the most important one there is.

What's the point?

What's the point in it being an induced dream when mind time travel has been officially plonked into the show? And how does a dream explain his capacity to see glimpses of the future?
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by Occam on Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:37 am

AngeloComet wrote:Occam, for me, calling it an induced dream might have had a chance at being right just after the episode had aired.

Well, that's my theory since "Flashes" was aired. I just didn't post it anywhere. ;-)

AngeloComet wrote:It would stink, mind, because anything that's all a dream stinks, but it had a chance at being right.

Ok, don't call it a dream. Call it a "vision." We know several characters had visions --some of them while they were awake, some others while they were asleep-- and we don't question that. I think those "visions", "dreams", "flashes" or whatever you may call them, are not fortuitous but induced.

AngeloComet wrote:But since we've seen the actual phenomena take place, it renders the idea that the first time was a dream obsolete does it not?

I don't think so. We keep wondering why "Flashes Desmond" didn't seem to need a constant, but "Constant Desmond" did. There you have an answer.


AngeloComet wrote:Again I come back to this one question. It's the question I ask myself whenever presented with any new theory. It's the most important one there is.

What's the point?

What's the point in it being an induced dream when mind time travel has been officially plonked into the show? And how does a dream explain his capacity to see glimpses of the future?

"Mind time travel", if that was what we watched, was introduced a whole season after "Flashes". My "induced dream" theory comes from even before "Flashes", 'cause I doubt the flashbacks are actual memories of the characters. What's the point? Well, I would ask what's the point on introducing "mind time travel" when there are simpler --and, therefore, more feasible, following "the Razor" ;-)--explanations. Maybe you remember my "Persinger theory" on LT: human perception of reality may be altered by ways of a magnetic field. That is not only simpler than "mind time travel", but it also has factual support --or at least that's the claim of Dr. Michael Persinger, head of the Behavioral Neuroscience Program at Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario.

An "induced dream" is coherent with what I keep feeling: that the Island is a character by itself, has its own will and interacts --through "tampering" with memories and/or perceptions using its unusual magnetic field-- with people to use them as tools for its own plan.

"Mind time travel", though, may well be an unwanted side effect. It may act as an enforcer of the secret of the Island: we know Minkowsky died because of his travels on-and-off the Island without a proper "constant". But, with a "constant", you're free to come and go without risk. I'm not telling "mind time travelling" is something made on purpose, though.

I'll get back to you and answer your question about the "flashes" themselves, but now I've got to go. Occamette must be put to bed, and that means time and dedication ;-)

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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:16 am

Wait wait wait. . .
'cause I doubt the flashbacks are actual memories of the characters

What fresh madness is this?

I can't wait for the next instalment of Occam's Truths.

Black is white. The Earth is flat. Women can think objectively.

No
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by Occam on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:28 am

Not "fresh" madness, my friend. Old tale of mine. Only I don't go shouting my theories Evil or Very Mad ...

I'm on my way to work, I just wanted to post the link to my "Persinger" theory on LT, just in case you guys wanted to check it. It's >> here <<.

Cheers.

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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:40 am

I read it.

That theory makes some interesting ideas about electromagnetism effects on the brain creating some of the weird phenomena on the Island, like the whispers. Fair enough. That's an acceptable theory. (I ain't buyin', mind, but I ain't tellin' you you're wrong 'cos I can't).

But I'm not accepting the idea that the flashbacks we've seen aren't just flashbacks. I mean, in that case, what the hell are flashforwards?

Lost is a mosaic, as the creators have put it. With pieces from the past, Island present, and flashforward future all being revealed piece by piece, in no certain order, to eventually build into one big picture.

Now you ask me to accept that one-third of that mosaic, of the Lost show, it's all just some electromagnetic effect on Losties' brains?

*blink*

I think you know I'm not the kind of guy that's going to take it lying down. Other people may nod along. Other people may clap. Not me. The Atomic Comet will take a stand, alone if need be, but he will take a stand.

cheers

And I'll shout about it to anyone that's in earshot!
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by StitchExp626 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:57 am

HI AC

I think that the reference shows a good use of google cache!!

Here is the text:

Michael Persinger, from Laurentian University —Ontario, Canada— has been researching since 1970 the possible effects of an electromagnetic field on human’s brain.

His experiments —although not backed-up by the scientific community— could explain why the Losties have visions, “prophetic” dreams and déjà-vu, especially when considered along with false memory syndrome.

Some links providing more information about Persinger and his subjects of study — http://web.ionsys.com/~remedy/Persinger,%20Michael.htm —, temporal lobe lability — http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/T/templobelability.html — and false memory syndrome — http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/F/falsemem.html


Even if Dr. Persinger’s works have not been seconded by any other scientific, there are several connections between Dr. Persinger’s studies and events happening on the Island that make me think they might have inspired the writers.
The sources for this theory can be found following the previous links, but anyway I will highlight what I think is related to the show:



  • Bioelectromagnetic fields between 1 and 50 nanoTeslas —much less than Earth’s own magnetic field intensity, which is around 2.5 miliTeslas— applied during pregnancy might be involved with sudden infant death because of histological alteration. The Island is known to have a very high EMF, so maybe this huge intensity causes a bigger impact in cells and therefore the foetus —and the pregnant mother— death.

  • Combined with right hemispheric stimulation, EMF causes the subject to feel “presences”. Some subjects felt these presences were religious beings or deceased people. This made me think of the whispers and also of Christian, Yemi and even Dave.

  • When the subject tries to “focus” upon the sensed presence, it “moves”. Similar to what happened to Jack with his father vision, Hurley with Dave, and Eko with Yemi.

  • Subjects with a strong faith reported they would have killed if the “presence” had told them to. This could explain why the Others have no doubt about being the “good guys” and, at the same time, having no trouble with abduction and/or murder.



There is more information that could be somehow related to the show, but I think these are the more strong points.

Credit for this theory should go to a workmate of mine, who suggested the possible connection between EMF and the phenomenon of alien-abduction might be appliable to events in Lost.

It sounds pretty plausible to me!

Stitch
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:59 pm

So you think the flashbacks are delusional imaginings too, Stitch?

Cool.

No comment on what the flashforwards are then?

So flashbacks could be mental aberrations and are unreliable, but the flashforwards are set in stone? That's where we're up to?

Except thats not true, is it?

Because otherwise what the hell was Mikhail checking out about the passenger's histories? About Jack being a spinal surgeon? Or Locke being in a wheelchair? The history with his father? Kate being a fugitive? Hurley winning the lottery?

All these are proven real by events from an exterior source to the flashback itself. And those are just the ones that sprang first to mind. So now what? Some of the flashbacks are unreliable whilst other ones aren't? Is that where we're up to now?

Come on, now. Let's not.
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by Occam on Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:22 pm

AC, my pal, this is not a war. At least, I'm not picking a fight, ok?

It's hard for me to explain coherently what I've been musing about for four seasons of LOST. I never pictured myself as a theorist, really, so I didn't set up my thoughts to be presented in a clear discourse. Sometimes I drop the occasional remark and/or question to someone else's theories, such as "did you consider (insert-idea-here) as a posibility?", but without giving a lengthy explanation about why should I consider (insert-idea-here) as applicable to the theory, or what aspects of the show do I think it would address.

You're asking for "Occam Truths" but, friend, there's no spoon truths. Only tidbits. It will take me some time to gather these tidbits, dress them appropriately and present them to you as a meal of food for thought. I will find inconsistencies on the way, of course, and that would mean more work 'cause I'll feel the need to reconcile them before presenting them to you guys. And I'm a lazy dude...

Take this as a capitulation, if you want to. It's not that it matters so much what do I think about LOST. If I'm right, fair enough. If I'm wrong... that would be simply great. I expect from LOST writers to be creative enough to come up with something I can't even imagine. If I had the key to LOST... it wouldn't be a show worth watching.

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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:51 pm

I ain't fighting.

I just discuss hard.

I know you can take it!
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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by Occam on Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:55 pm

--

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Re: where did failsafe des go?

Post by solarchap on Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:10 pm

Wow!

Occers, AC & Stitch, I only just got back to this post, I want you guys to come and argue at my place, while I sit back toking massive doobies!

You guys all put your point across with passion and it's great to read!

Now i aint steppin into the ring or nothing, but I side with AC on this one, but he knows I don't side with him on Cloverfield!

thankyou for such deep input, i loved it!
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