Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:13 pm

I do copy and paste from my blog, because I get to retain the screencaps that way. However, I have to change the font and colour manually as the post doesn't recognise these changes automatically.

You can change the font size and colour using the the buttons above where you post.

So 'select all' (Ctrl A) and then click on the palette button, and then whatever colour you select there changes the colour of the writing.

The 'size' button doesn't appear when you're trying to post comments, but you can change the size of your font using the same select all function and pressing the button that is there when you're posting actual threads.

I choose 'Normal' size for my posts, as that's the one that I think looks the neatest.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:18 pm

AngeloComet wrote:
I believe that has to be wrong, because we saw 1996 Desmond wake up with dreams of being in the helicopter. Hence I posit here the 'fused consciousness' explanation with one consciousness taking precedence over the other. It's the only way this makes sense for me.

Thats because your the only one who thinks about it so god damn much! But I do agree with you. I would love to see a debate between you and Lojozz about... anything.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:25 pm

THS, it can get ugly. . . it can get real ugly. . .
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:34 pm

AngeloComet wrote:OK. I'm not sure if this point is being lost, or it's understood and this conversation is working at cross purposes.

I am not denying that 1996 consciousness travels forwards. It does.

What I am saying is the 2004 consciousness goes back first and then gets absorbed and superceded and thus left unknown by the 1996 consciousness.

This makes sense. If the 1996 consciousness travelled forward first then it probably wouldn't overrule the 2004 consciousness, because 2004 was in it's proper time frame. If mind fusion has rules I would guess that whichever consciousness is in its correct time frame should take the steering wheel. And also why would the 1996 consciousness travel forward. It wasn't travelling to or from the island and it hadn't been exposed to radiation.

AC - I think the reason people are not getting it so easily is because mind travel is a confusing concept and you have explained it in a way that makes sense to you and not neccessarily to others. I think that everyone should go and think about this and then find a way that it makes sense for you, instead of ideas being hammered into you by a mad Comet. lol!

TheHolyStickman

P.S. Sorry about quoting things from miles away, but I was just catching up.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:41 pm

Li'l aside, here. This whole "mind travelling" and "constant needing" stuff makes me think of "The Drawing of the Three" (Dark Tower series, 2nd book).

Don't ask me why.

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by kristenislost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:28 pm

Desmond in Penny's flat provides a perfect example. One moment 2004 Desmond is turning a Fail Safe, the next moment he is zapped back in time to Penny's flat (approximately 1996) where 1996 Desmond absorbs this 2004 consciousness. So the 1996 consciousness is well aware of who he is, where he is and when he is, and yet 1996 Desmond is partially aware of his 2004 consciousness. The microwave sounds like The Swan Station alarm. The model yacht in Widmore's office seems familiar. Slowly the 2004 consciousness takes firmer awareness (remembers Charlie, remembers Jimmy Lennon and the cricket bat) and Des' brain, fused with two consciousness', is able to reconcile the disparity.

One smack to the head later and 1996 Desmond and 2004 Desmond have worked out their differences and snapped back to the place they were supposed to be. No Constant necessary this time! Because both consciousness' managed to retain a hold of themselves, anchored by memories, the "side effect" issues don't appear.


I hope I'm doing this cutting and pasting right. I'm referring to AC's comments above. OK, I've now reread this post again because I thought maybe I was just being mentally lazy and not really digesting all of the info. But, there's something that I can't get around, logically: You're talking about the scene in Flashes where Desmond wakes up in Penny's flat, and then you claim that "Desmond is able to recognize the disparity," and "no constant necessary this time."

How can you say no constant is necessary when Penny (Desmond's constant) is there? What if the reason he's "able to recognize the disparity" is BECAUSE she's there? In other words, how can you logically take Penny out of the equation? It seems like that would be the logical equivalent to me saying, "well, I'm glad my brain found a way to rid itself of the headache I just had...I guess I didn't need that 4 advil I took."

This may be the case of something staring me directly in the face and I can't see it, but if someone could explain this to me I'd REALLY appreciate it confused

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:37 pm

But his constant wasnt there in both situations Kristen. It wasnt the problem that Desmond couldnt find Penny in 1996, it was contacting her in 2004 that was the hard part.

What AC is trying to say, is that when he first went back in Flash before your eyes his consciousnesses were fused together so that 1996 had more control, but his 2004 mind could still recognise things. Microve - Swan Station timer for example. But the hit was when he saw Charlie, then with this person he recognised from 2004 his 2004 consciousnes split with the 1996 mind. It only took a wack to the head to actually get him back. (Although in my opinion I think he just needed to be unconscious for his 2004 mind to go back.)

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by kristenislost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:48 pm

There's definitely a blonde moment going on here with me, and that makes sense about her needing to be there in both times! OK, so are you saying that Charlie essentially performed the function of a constant for Desmond? (haha, are there degrees of constantness...lol...along those lines even the beeping of the microwave could have provided the similarity of both times to him, thus helping him to reconcile the two times.)

If not, let's say Desmond didn't get hit by the bat and was allowed to continue...would "2004 hatch Desmond" have ended up in a situation where he needed to contact Penny to survive? In other words, did getting hit by the bat save his life?

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:01 pm

kristenislost wrote:There's definitely a blonde moment going on here with me, and that makes sense about her needing to be there in both times! OK, so are you saying that Charlie essentially performed the function of a constant for Desmond? (haha, are there degrees of constantness...lol...along those lines even the beeping of the microwave could have provided the similarity of both times to him, thus helping him to reconcile the two times.)

Well think of it like this. You are dreaming and you think it is completely real, you wander round seeing some strange things but you think nothing of them. Then you see a giant 8 eyed monster, and you realise your in a dream.

This monster would be like Charlie, this was his way of remembering who he was.

If not, let's say Desmond didn't get hit by the bat and was allowed to continue...would "2004 hatch Desmond" have ended up in a situation where he needed to contact Penny to survive? In other words, did getting hit by the bat save his life?

Well I don't think so, when 2004 Des realised he wasn't where he was supposed to be it would only be a matter of falling asleep before his 2004 consciousness went back his unconcious body on the island. (Remember the hatch just imploded so he was unconscious.) So basically Desmond would have to be alseep to change back, but the hit on the head was more dramatic. And I think they wanted it to be day on the island.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:04 pm

Guys, ain't you all giving too much thought to it? It is simple, you know. Desmond didn't need a "constant" in flashes because... he didn't "mind travel" at all. Nor "time travel" either.

It's all in the mind...

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Shhhhhhhh Occam. I'm having fun! Very Happy
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:10 pm

So am I, Mr. Stickman. Cool

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:11 pm

I think Mr. Stickman has done admirable work here in my stead, and has got it down about as good as I could.

Once 2004 Des knew he belonged in 2004, it was just a matter of time (ha!) before his consciousness would be dragged back. . .

It's difficult to come with a definitive 'ruling' about the issues of mind travel, since it's hardly a definitive science. But in terms of the show, we also have the fact that Desmond's experiences were triggered by two different factors: 1. The Fail Safe EMG event and 2. Travelling from the Island to outside the Island having been exposed to radiation.

You could come up with all kinds of speculations as to why Desmond didn't appear to need a Constant during Flashes Before Your Eyes. I went with the theory that awareness of 2004 in his fused consciousness anchored Desmond's future mind to knowing where it belonged. That one just seemed to make the most logical sense, but it's not 100% perfect.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:18 pm

Kristen, If I ever become debate champion, I'm inviting you for our first debate. Or vice versa.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by kristenislost on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 am

Very Happy Stickman, I would love that! My friends tell me I would argue with a brick wall if I could get one to talk back. I love this site...my husband cuts me off after my alloted 5 minutes of discussion, but there will always be someone on this site who will argue about Lost with me. This Desmond thing is interesting, because I watched it, it immediately became my favorite episode, but I never really thought too much about the two scenarios being that different....thought wrong!

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:24 am

Well it was a good discussion anyway, Kristen. Thanks! Very Happy
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