Sawyer's act of cowardice

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Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:52 pm

In responce to GaryOC's observation about Sawyer's selfless leap from the helicopter:

I'd have to say that Sawyer's act was not one of bravery or even stupidity but cowardice.

Look at his situation: He was deported from Down under and no doubt U.S. authorities would want to chat with him about how he got out of the country (undoubtedly with a phony passport since he is a convicted felon)

He did not want to go back and has said as much before.

But the thing that scared him the most about going back was Kate.
.
If he went back to civilization he would have to deal with the possibilities of making a relationship with Kate work. Or if not Kate, then his experiences on the island would probably motivated him to seek out Cassidy and his daughter and try to make a go of a relationship with either of them or both. But either way, Sawyer has the internal mindset of "I am a loser, not worthy of a good life" He might try to make something work out with either Kate or Cassidy or his little girl but he would always set himself up to fail. And when he did fail it would just reinforce his own belief that he is a loser.

The thought of making a go at a relationship back in the real world scared him more than the horrors and uncertainties of the island. He'd rather shoot a mercenary than hold his daughter. Hed rather run from a smoke monster than be with a woman he claims to love. He'd rather struggle to find food and water than be with his daughter.

To me, that is cowardice.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Shamballa on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:09 pm

This might be a good topic for the debates.

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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Hope on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:17 pm

no i think he loves his daughter. and in reality he doesn't know that she exists for real, after all is the daughter of the cassidy the women that he conned while teaching her to con.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:20 pm

Maybe Hope, but he knows Kate exists.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by blonde on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:26 pm

MSHL:

I can see your point regarding Sawyer & his fear of commitment & emotional blockades regarding heroism. However, he ran into a burning building to save Claire, he was almost beat to death to spare Kate confessing she loved him, he jumped out of a helicopter to secure his friends saftey (IMO). I could go on all day...The question you answered is more about Sawyer being emotionally heroic. NO....your right, he is not. You argue that point well. He let his precious Kate leave for the beach b/c he is scared of commitment and why wouldn't he be? Who ever gave him any unconditional love? Hence, we have the "bad boy" act. Under the circumstances Sawyer is a still a hero. He is an emotional wimp...yes, but he is still a hero. The beauty of Sawyer is that you can see him however you want to...XXXOOO
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:39 pm

I see your point Blonde but back in the 80's I was in a volunteer fire department but I would not consider myself a hero (though many fire fighters are)

I think the mark of a hero is how they face life. not just whether they occasionally do heroic things.

Anyone can pull a woman from a burning building
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by blonde on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:42 pm

Well then why didn't anyone else?

P.S You are a hero to me
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:01 pm

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:Back in the 80's I was in a volunteer fire department but I would not consider myself a hero.

You know what, dude? That's what makes you one.

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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Lateralus on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:09 pm

In the immortal words of Sting:
"If you love somebody, set them free"

He knew Kate would be better off without him.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by blonde on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:15 pm

"...If you want to keep something precious
You got to lock it up and throw away the key"
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:27 pm

Thanks Blonde and Occam, but real heros are ones who are still out there pulling people out of burning buildings, not the ones who can't bring themselves to look at that sort of thing every day.
Yup, I guess that makes me and Sawyer tight
Very Happy

And remember Lateralus:
If you love someone set them free.
If they come back it was meant to be.
If they don't come back,
hunt them down and kill them.

(sigh) They don't write em like that anymore
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:34 pm

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:Real heros are ones who are still out there pulling people out of burning buildings, not the ones who can't bring themselves to look at that sort of thing every day.

Dude... where does that leave me? Huh? Very Happy

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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:35 pm

Hmmmm MSHL I must have heard a different version.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by blonde on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:47 pm

I'm about to break out some Mariah Carey lyrics.....that the hero lies in you. Make me stop.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by TheHolyStickman on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:51 pm

GAH....Nhmmmm....Cant stop them.


One day I'm going to grow wings
A chemical reaction
Hysterical and useless
Hysterical and ...

Let down and hanging around



These are my fav radiohead lyrics of all time.... Ever.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:57 pm

Occam, I'm sure that Missus Occam and Occamette think you are a hero!

And watch it Blonde...threats of Mariah Carey will not go unpunished!
Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Occam on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:59 pm

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:Occam, I'm sure that Missus Occam and Occamette think you are a hero!

Nah... I'm more a Roger WOccman kind of guy.

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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:04 am

Advice to Occam: No liesurely country drives in a VW van with his grown children.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by wtfsignmeup on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:16 am

Im not very happy with you MSHL Mad I just got home from work, its 8 am and I have to try to post a rebuttal to defend my boys honor Razz
Look at his situation: He was deported from Down under and no doubt
U.S. authorities would want to chat with him about how he got out of
the country (undoubtedly with a phony passport since he is a convicted
felon)

He did not want to go back and has said as much before.
And yet he made sure he was on the raft and tried to defend Walt and saved Michaels life.

But the thing that scared him the most about going back was Kate.
.
If
he went back to civilization he would have to deal with the
possibilities of making a relationship with Kate work. Or if not Kate,
then his experiences on the island would probably motivated him to seek
out Cassidy and his daughter and try to make a go of a relationship
with either of them or both. But either way, Sawyer has the internal
mindset of "I am a loser, not worthy of a good life" He might try to
make something work out with either Kate or Cassidy or his little girl
but he would always set himself up to fail. And when he did fail it
would just reinforce his own belief that he is a loser.
Ben reinforced the fact that Kate would choose Jack over Sawyer back in the real world in 'Confirmed Dead' and probably with good reason ... Sawyer seemed to take that to heart and proposed they ' play house' and stay at the barracks. He seemed to be the only one that remembered Kate was wanted for multiple crimes back home!
As for his fear of failing at a relationship with his daughter,thats a reasonable fear for someone with a horrible childhood such as his.

But when push came to shove there was no way Sawyer was going to watch Kate fly off on the chopper with out him.
The thought of making a go at a relationship back in the real world
scared him more than the horrors and uncertainties of the island. He'd
rather shoot a mercenary than hold his daughter. Hed rather run from a
smoke monster than be with a woman he claims to love. He'd rather
struggle to find food and water than be with his daughter.

To me, that is cowardice.

Sawyer had had no family or sense of community in his life prior to the island. Any respect he'd gained for himself or from others he gained on the island. The island gave him the resolution to his long held need for revenge on the guy that caused his family death and suffering. He might have preferred to stay there but at least he was brave enough to get on the chopper in the end and face the uncertain future.
He promised Kate he'd protect her and in that moment on the chopper he made a quick decision to keep his word.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by blonde on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:41 am

GO WTF GO!!!
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by wtfsignmeup on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:56 am

First I have to sleep for a while, but I'll be back Very Happy
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Hope on Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:50 am

I am not saying that he is a hero, but at that moment, he was. I am saying he is not a coward, thats all!! Besides how can not like sawyer?!?!!? Very Happy
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:22 am

Don't get me wrong, I love Sawyer (in a manly, non-freaky-deaky kinda way)

I am also not sayng that he is a coward overall.

I am saying that his jumping from the chopper was not an act of bravery as much as it was an escape.

He did not want to leave that Island and he chose staying there over the uncertainty of a future with Kate and/or his daughter. Yes he got on the chopper and was on the way to face his new life but when the opportuinty came to bail out, he did...literally.

That doesn't sound all that brave to me.

We all have things which terrify us on a gut level and even if we cloak our fears in heroic deeds, it doesn't change the fact that we are running away from that which scares us the most.

Yes, his fears are deeply rooted in his childhood but that doesn't change some unpleasant facts. We've seen him kill at least two people out of revenge, one of who wasn't even the right guy!

If a Sawyer-like person moved into the house next to yours and you knew about him what you know about Sawyer, You'd sleep with a gun in your hand every night...if you could sleep at all.

Sawyer is a great character and Josh Holloway does a fantastic job portraying him but just because Sawyer's sexy or charming doesn't make him brave or nice or good.
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by wtfsignmeup on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:36 pm

If a Sawyer-like person moved into the house next to yours and you knew
about him what you know about Sawyer, You'd sleep with a gun in your
hand every night...if you could sleep at all.
Actually, if I knew the history of his childhood, I can honestly say I would be sympathetic though wary.
If an Iraqui torturer, or a father murdering woman moved in next door I would be as concerned.Actually, I think he feels more remorse than Kate.
He did not want to leave that Island and he chose staying there over
the uncertainty of a future with Kate and/or his daughter. Yes he got
on the chopper and was on the way to face his new life but when the
opportuinty came to bail out, he did...literally.
Your opinion.
In Born To Run he told Kate he was intent on leaving the island because there was nothing there for him to stay for.
By the time of The Economist he told her he was intent on staying because there was nothing back home for him. Maybe he was being a coward but I think the point was that where Kate and his friends were was a place worth living in for him.
The guys bravery can't be questioned. He was willing to take a bullet for Kate,swam with a shark to get to the raft etc.
Sawyer doesn't know his worth. He would consider himself beneath just about everyone around him...in this you're right.
But the reason he jumped to his possible death when the request came from Lapidus was brave.Its an example of a person who thinks those around them are more precious than their own safety.



All I can see is fear and regret.

Sawyer is a great character and Josh Holloway does a fantastic job
portraying him but just because Sawyer's sexy or charming doesn't make
him brave or nice or good.
I'm not as shallow as I act. The character possesses a heart of gold imo .
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Re: Sawyer's act of cowardice

Post by Occam on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:39 pm

wtfsignmeup wrote:The reason he jumped to his possible death when the request came from Lapidus was brave.Its an example of a person who thinks those around them are more precious than their own safety.

I couldn't agree more. Bravo, wtf.

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