Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

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Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by AngeloComet on Wed May 14, 2008 2:59 pm

Let me state at the top - I don't believe the crash of Oceanic 815 was intended. The business with Desmond just happening to not press the button at the precise moment that Oceanic 815 was travelling above the Island affords such an unlikely set of circumstances against someone intending that to happen it breaks my probability register.



So that's that.

And then I had other arguments about how the crash wasn't intended. Like how getting all those people deliberately on the plane requires such a level of organisation and planning it, once again, baffles me. All of it would have taken is for Hurley to choose to spend one more day with his father after they had made up to not go to Australia and not get on Oceanic 815, or for Kate not to help Ray Mullen (the one-armed farmer) so she wouldn't have got caught and been transported on Oceanic 815. (All the other characters have equally finely-balanced circumstances that could have changed.)



And then there was always the issue of survival. Namely: If you want to get a bunch of people onto a desert Island then sending them there in a large tube of metal and allowing that same tube to drop out of the sky and crash into the ground in flaming debris is not the best way of going about it. Let's just say if I wanted to get all my best friends to the Island for a party, a plane crash is not how I would make sure they arrived. Chances are, some - if not all - of my best friends wouldn't make it.



However, since Meet Kevin Johnson, and more acutely in Cabin Fever, there's been gathering substance to the idea that some people cannot be killed. Michael has a specific purpose and he cannot be killed. Locke, as Ben ruefully states, also cannot be killed (and so shooting him at the mass grave was pointless). If some people are "supposed" to do something, then they stay alive.



That's one aspect of my argument attacked. Approximately two hundred Oceanic 815 passengers were killed. They were not protected by this 'invulnerability'. Those that were protected - the likes of Locke, Jack, Hurley, Michael, etc - were guaranteed to survive. And that's my point. If the plane crash was intended, the invulnerability of the 'special' passengers guaranteed their safe arrival.

And what of the likes of Joanna - the girl that drowned during White Rabbit? She survived the crash, and yet pointlessly died not long after. To that I would argue that she was either not "supposed" to survive and yet did (and so course correction caught up with her and Joanna the strong swimmer died whilst swimming!), or her death was the purpose for her on the Island (it triggered Jack's accepting of the role of leader for the Oceanic Tribe). Looked at from any of those two perspectives, the deaths of passengers since the Oceanic crash can be explained.



Let me state at the bottom - I don't believe the crash of Oceanic 815 was intended, but one of my main arguments against it has been knocked over and who's to say my other arguments won't be equally disproved over the course of the show. . .? So I don't believe the crash of Oceanic 815 was intended, yet, but I'm more receptive to the idea that it might have been.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Lojozz on Wed May 14, 2008 3:05 pm

As I commented last time I read this:
I don't think that the crash was intended, I just think that certain powers knew the plane would crash and so got the people on the plane they wanted on the plane knowing the island would save them.

I have a theory on Des and the plane which I hope to post either later today or tomorrow.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Wed May 14, 2008 3:12 pm

Lojozz wrote:As I commented last time I read this:
I don't think that the crash was intended, I just think that certain powers knew the plane would crash and so got the people on the plane they wanted on the plane knowing the island would save them.

I have a theory on Des and the plane which I hope to post either later today or tomorrow.

I agree with this...I think there was a lot of instigators involved in getting key characters on the plane that they probably already knew would crash there.

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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by MollyCocktail on Wed May 14, 2008 5:22 pm

Fate created the circumstances but destiny crashed that plane.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Lojozz on Wed May 14, 2008 6:01 pm

Molly: So what's the difference between fate and destiny?
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Thu May 15, 2008 11:26 am

I have to say that I believe that the crash was not intended and those involved were not manipulated into getting on 815. I rather beleive that as the plane was crashing, the island got a sense of who was on the plane, who could help it and then "protected" those it saw as people who could be of assistance to it. Other passengers who survived the crash just happend to survive and the island neither helped them or did them harm.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Fate on Thu May 15, 2008 5:06 pm

I also believe that it wasn't intended. Just think of how big such an operation must have been to get all those specific people on the flight. I think that there is no organisation behind the crash (would sooner believe it's the powers of the island.)

Just figure that Jack had to fight his way on the plane due to his dad being dead
Hurley had to rush his butt of to get there in time
Sun was planning on leaving jin
Sayid decided to take the next flight so he could claim his friends body

There were all reasons they should have not boarded that plane, but they did, and they survived the crash
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Lojozz on Thu May 15, 2008 5:29 pm

Fate all the people you mention are in the Oceanic 6. Perhaps they were not meant to be on the flight and that is why they are the ones allowed to leave the island.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Fate on Thu May 15, 2008 5:36 pm

Funny that you mention that Loj. That's exactly what I posted on LT.com when AC posted the theory there. The people who had issues getting on the plane are oceanic 6. Although I cant place Kate. She was a prisoner. But was there any cause that made her go on this plane instead of another or anything?

But then again. Why not kill em off during the crash then? If they arent suppose to be on the plane
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Lojozz on Thu May 15, 2008 5:55 pm

There was a horrible scene with Kate and the Marshal and the case full of guns, can't remember if that caused them to be delayed though.

Perhaps they survived by chance, a stretch I know but its all I got.
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importance of willpower

Post by eda on Thu May 15, 2008 8:55 pm

I believe that it's all a mix of fate and coincidence.

However, it's impossible to explain how Matthew Abaddon knew that Locke would end up on the island if he encouraged him to go to Australia. It's like that popular book, the Secret, where if especially 2 people, or forces wish to find each other really badly, without even knowing the existence of one another, and if they happen to come close physically, their willpowers will actually affect the particles, the weather, the earth etc, between them and there will be a physical pull. So if Locke wasn't on that plane, a tornado would have picked him off the desert and dropped him on the island.. the filming of which would remind us of Dorothy in Wizard of Oz.. It's Pseudoscience, but I have a feeling that this is exactly what is happening on the show.

Think about it.. Willpower affecting physics. Perhaps it was the island/Jacob that picked Desmond as well. Because if you put a man like Desmond, who is so incredibly in love with a woman, on a deserted island, he will find a way out sooner or later due to the willpowers of these lovers. They have beat all laws of nature, even traveled through time to find each other again.

Maybe Locke is special just because he has such enormous willpower to prove he is special, he is a hunter, he is cool, that he is ready to serve any dangerous mission he might be assigned to by the island. And the island/Jacob is has the strongest will, of course. The island itself, is a bit like fate. It starts to rain every time a big decision is made.. I don't know. What do you think ? cat
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Lojozz on Thu May 15, 2008 9:00 pm

Eda some very interesting thoughts that sound like they would tie in nicely with synchronicity which I believe plays a huge part in the show.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Hope on Thu May 15, 2008 9:20 pm

At first, I believed that Paik or Widmore was behind the whole thing. I didn't know if they were responsible for everything, but I figured that they were involved, (one of both anyways). Now, I believe that the island "will" has a lot to do everything.

My problem is getting past the idea that a land mass can have a "will". Granted, I find it extemely intriguing!!! That said, I can't figure why everyone is connected in some way.

I think that the soul could have something to do with it. The soul is older than the body, so maybe their souls willed them to the island. Maybe their souls knew something.

That is why Hurley hurried to get to the plane, I mean he seemed pretty desperate. He is filthy rich, doesn't have a job, nothing really important to get back too. Maybe that is the real reason why Sayid changed his flight to the next day, his soul willed it. Could be why Jack fought so hard to get on the plane and why Sun couldn't bring herself to go through with her plan to leave Jin. And maybe that is why Kate went to Austrailia. Isnt that the first place other than the united states that she ran too? Maybe that is the real reason she stopped to help Ray. I mean, I have seen her break her own heart to save herself, drug her husband and shoot someone!!!
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by eda on Thu May 15, 2008 11:16 pm

Thanks Lojozz ! Wink

Hope- Every character seems to be connected but I guess the only ones out of 815 that were more obviously meant to end up on the island before the crash were Locke and perhaps Aaron- the psychic might have known about it.

If the whole thing was a set-up, to get at least Locke on that plane, they would have to follow him and get their special pilot to fly the plane he would be on. Which is meaningless because if it's not about fate or other forces, why not just kidnap him and put him on a helicopter- much more convenient- he will end up there anyway even if they don't know the bearing. Locke would still believe in miracles once he could walk again. So I think there is no 'them'. Just Locke and the island. I even think that both Alpert and Abaddon found out about Locke after the crash, then they traveled back in time to contact younger Locke, so that the grown up Locke would really believe he was special and choose to help either team. Fate is just easier to believe than a complicated set up in this case.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Fate on Fri May 16, 2008 12:43 pm

@hope

Hurleys main reason for hurrying to the plane was because he didnt want to miss his mothers birthday and the next flight out was much later Smile

@Eda

I like your thoughts. I agree on the fate and coincidence, but with all these hints toward time traveling I would say Abadon knows stuff from the future. Wether he gets informed by Alpert or travels himself. You can't explain it otherwise.

I agree that if locke missed his flight he wouldnt have ended up on the island somehow. But Locke isn't the only one who needs to land on the island. If Jacob (assuming its his will that gets people onto the island) only wants Locke he would have killed of the rest of the characters.They all had a job to do on the island. Lockes job is just a bit more meaniful and special than others.

I really like your last few sentences of your 2nd comment. That once they found out Locke could walk again (and realises he had a special connection to the island) they travelled back to ensure everything goes right or even better: to improve ('manipulate' if I may) his thoughts and what he stands for (no wheelchair irony here, you get the point), so Locke is alot stronger mentally and psychially when he gets to the island.

I like that Wink

Good going Eda
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Fri May 16, 2008 2:00 pm

Nice thoughts EDA.

I have to say that any influence on the Losties to be on that plane were beyond human control. There is simply no way that so many variable could be accounted for by any person or group of people. Plus the interventions (if there were any) that would have manipulated them to be on that particular flight are so subtle and semmingly random that only a "higher power" (for lack of a better term) could have been responsible.

Of course when you throw time travel into the mix, I guess you can keep going back in time over and over and over again, tinkering with all of the variables until you get the outcome that you want.

I think you are correct Lojozz, when you state that synchronicity (and, as a result, interconnectedness) play a large part in the show...but is that synchronicity by design or merely random chance?

... I still think it was random chance.
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Fri May 16, 2008 2:17 pm

+1 if for no other reason than your use of the phrase "probability register"
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by eda on Fri May 16, 2008 4:15 pm

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:

Of course when you throw time travel into the mix, I guess you can keep going back in time over and over and over again, tinkering with all of the variables until you get the outcome that you want.

Well so far we only saw that happen with Locke. And maybe Desmond. I also believe that most of what happened was just random events. It's a bit weird that everybody on the island somehow knew at least an acquaintance of someone else but the writers stated somewhere that it was this rule, that could apply to just any 2 people in the world, where the friend of a friend of a friend (I don't know how many, could be 2 or 6) of yours possibly knows the other in person. So there is at least some level of randomness.

and thanks btw for approving my ideas Very Happy
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by Moefy on Fri May 16, 2008 11:34 pm

i think im pointing out an obvious thing here, but i just realized lol if u add the 6 numbers together 4,8,15,16,23,42 they come to 108 lol. sorry if im being mega slow i just noticed
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by lonewolf on Sat May 17, 2008 9:53 pm

as far as meant to be goes....

we could possibly agree that the oceanic 6 were not really meant to be on the plane and therefore managed to get off it....

and as far as locke is concerned , he kinda wasnt even meant to be born but went on to overcomr some serious obstacles, end up on the islamd and walk again...and he was headhunted by alpert and abaddon...

its as if people like alpert had heard about a kid that should be dead....could be a must have quality from a recruitment point of view

a neccessary quality....
shared by....

ben..
aaron..
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by TheHolyStickman on Sun May 18, 2008 12:01 pm

Yes i think I agree that It would have been a very big coincidence for the crash to be intended. And if you want to put it down to the islands work read this theory by MyStarbuck it explains a lot. http://losties.darkbb.com/big-theories-f7/did-the-island-directly-manipulate-the-losties-onto-815-psychics-and-others-and-deaths-oh-my-t87.htm
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Re: Why The Crash Of Oceanic 815 Could Have Been Intended

Post by theggsnake on Mon May 26, 2008 10:23 am

Happy Birthday AngeloComet
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