debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

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debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by StitchExp626 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:22 pm

The wait is over and congratulations go to the reigning champion Hope who has won her second debate.

Well done both Hope and SunburnedPenguin. A well argued and exciting debate was had.


Welcome to the latest debate between our current champion Hope and the latest challenger for the throne, Sunburned Penguin.
The same rules apply as last time, the challenge is open for questions for 48 hours, when a poll will be added to decide the winner.
Good luck to you both, may the best side win!!!
The arguments:
Hope's Argument:
HERO -
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.



COWARD -
1. a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.
–adjective 2. lacking courage; very fearful or timid.



THE HERO AS A CHARACTER -
In each story that represents a Hero's Journey, the hero must experience steps that represent the struggle for inside.


The Hero's Journey begins with either an inner longing to go on a quest, or an exterior call that enlists the aid of the hero. Heroes may, at first, refuse the call, or may at once respond to the call. There is usually some resistance to the call because it means leaving a comfortable existence to walk into unknown physical and psychological danger.


In some cases, a guide or supernatural aid will direct the first part of the Hero's Journey. Such is the case in various Biblical passages where God, for example, instructs Noah to build an ark, or where angels reveal the path Christ must follow. The next step is a crossing of the threshold, the moment when the hero must leave the known world and venture into parts unknown.


In the Hero's Journey, one may encounter a threshold guardian, who tries to discourage the hero from the crossing. In Greek myths, travels to the underworld mean getting past Cerberus, the three-headed dog, and physically crossing the river Styx. The threshold crossing is symbolically interpreted as entering the unconscious psyche.


Once into the unconscious, the hero frequently has moments of doubt and despair, called “The Belly of the Whale.” This despair is short lived and is followed by various trials that will test the hero and reveal to him his true nature.


The final conflict prior to returning to the normal world is confrontation with the father figure. In some cases this means killing the father, while in others it means in some way vanquishing the father’s power over oneself. In The Return of the Jedi for example, Luke offers his father Darth Vader a chance to redeem himself, instead of taking up his light saber to slay him. Luke saves Vader from his own evil nature, and though Vader dies, Luke has now dealt with that which exhibited ultimate control over him.


I wrote this for college in a Greek Mythology class.



We all know that the first thing Jack did when he awoke was run to figure out what was happening. When he found out, he didn't have to immediately run to peoples aide, he just did it. He helped organize and headed the trip to the cock pit to receive the transceiver to hopefully make a call to save everyone. Since then his main mission was to save everyone. He was the unofficially appointed leader of everyone because people looked up to him, trusted him, wanted him and needed him to lead them. Because of Jack, the survivors stayed together and worked together to keep order and unity, which is important in a situation like that. Then Sawyer started a ruckus, stealing inhalers and other medication and Jack stepped up and took charge. And though Sawyer didn't stop or really change, Jack established his role as protector and authority figure. Jack then leads many expeditions through the jungle despite not knowing what was out there. Even after captured by the others, he still has his fellow losties on his mind. He helps Ben so that he can leave and hopefully bring rescue back to the island. It didn't go his way so he improvised. He saved Sawyer and Kate because at the time, it was all he could do. Then he finished helping Jack to save Juliet and himself.
Then he returns to the beach camp, and though he has brought the untrustworthy Juliet with him, people still are excited to see Jack. When Juliet tells Jack about Ben's plans, Jack plans a counter attack to save Sun and possibly Kate. Then he leads them to the radio tower and makes the call. The one that hopefully will save them all.


The call didn't save them though. Actually, it saved 6 of them. After watching the island disappear and not knowing the fate of the others that he worked so hard to save, he wants to go back. He wants to make right on his promise to save all of them. However his daddy issues keep coming up. He started drinking (a mirror of his father), and taking muscle relaxers. Now he is ready to make right. Now he is ready to go back and be the hero he promised to be. His time off of the island was his trial. Can he do this? Can he redeem himself? Can he deal with his daddy issues? Will he return stronger, a smarter man and a hero?


Yes!! He started the hero, he will end the hero. What we have seen in his season 4 flash forwards is a regression from the hero that we know from the island. I know, I should be arguing that even now he is a hero, and I am really. I am saying that what he is experiencing is a natural journey. He must go through this time of uncertainties, doubt and despair. Only then can he over come his father (which is a big problem for Jack, a problem since childhood) and return to the island and save everyone.


So in conclusion, Jack is a hero. Has been since the first episode. Still is now and will be in the future. Right now he is experiencing his trials, that doesn't mean that he is a coward by any means. His only real issue is his father and he will deal with it. Everyone looked up to him, even Sawyer after a time. Jack stepped up when no one else seemed to want to. Every one else was justly terrified, they needed Jack. And even if Jack needed them to need him, can you really say that Jack did that for himself? Maybe he was a born hero and was looking for his time to fill that birthright. His need to fix things could arise from him needing to fulfill a destiny.


Heroes are obviously not perfect. They are still humans and they are no different from everyone who commits mistakes and makes shortcomings. The bravest thing they can do is admit them and set them right.

SunburnedPenguins
Why Jack is a Coward, not a Hero

I am not going to make comparisons between Jack and other characters, simply because I want to tackle this purely on Jacks own history, actions, and reactions.

The best place to start is at the beginning.

In the very first season of Lost, we are introduced to Jack as an unwilling leader and hero. He didn't want to be a hero, or their leader, he didn't think he could be, but others looked to him as a leader and he was forced to comply. Why didn't he want to take this role? Fear. Fear of what would happen to him if he failed.

His father had drummed it into him from an early age, that he just doesn't have what it takes to deal with failure. He then grew up and approached life with an insatiable desire to fix things, to make things right. Everything we see Jack do for the other survivors is not because he is a hero, it is because he has to fix things and avoid the failure he is so afraid of. I will expand on this later.

When Kate is sewing up his wound in the pilot episode, he gives her a lovely story about how he once dealt with his fear. We all know the story so theres no need for me to repeat it, but looking back on it I cant help feeling that in that situation, with a woman on his operating table dying from a mistake he made, how did he justify having the time to stop and count to 5? He admits he was very scared, he was scared of failing, but he then let the fear take over for just 5 seconds and he fixed her. In my opinion, that fear shouldn't have been let in to begin with. He pats himself on the back for dealing with it but it was his mistake and he should have had the courage and quick thinking to just get on with the job.

When we learn more of Jacks back story in “Stranger in a Strange Land”, we see him forcing his lover to “mark” him. “He walks among us, but is not one of us”. She told him he was a “leader and a great man, but this makes him lonely, frightened, and angry” This is further confirmation that his life is dominated by fear of failure.

Every presumably heroic act we see Jack perform, both on and off the island, is not born of heroism, but of selfish cowardice. His motivation is not the wellbeing of his friends and companions, or even the girl he loves, but simply to not fail. He said he would get them off the island and he intends to keep that promise only because he is so scared of what failure would feel like....because he doesn't have what it takes.

The seal on his heroic coffin, for me, was the finale of season four. Specifically the scenes in the helicopter.

When Sawyer jumps off the helicopter to save everyone else, that is a truly heroic act. Jack just looks on, probably more distressed that Sawyer just kissed his girl than anything else.



Then again, when we have this conversation;

Where's the freighter?
LAPIDUS: I don't know. I stayed on course. They must have it on the move again.
How much fuel?
LAPIDUS: Four, five minutes worth, unless somebody else wants to jump.
Kate gives Jack a questioning and worried look....
JACK: As soon as we get to the boat, we'll go back for him.

Yeah right. I think the look Kate gives him here sums up how she feels about that. She doesn't believe him. He has exposed himself as a weak coward.



And then they land on the freighter to Desmonds warning of a bomb, and Kate makes a heroic decision to go and get Jin because, quite understandably, Sun doesn't want to leave him. But Jack wont have any of it.

JACK: Kate! Come on!
KATE: Jin's still inside! Jin's still inside. We can't leave him behind.
JACK: Come on. Listen, I'm not leaving without you. We gotta get out of here now. Let's go!
KATE; Give me a minute! No! Wait!
KATE: Where's Jin?

They get in the helicopter and take off;

SUN: It's Jin!
JACK: No!
SUN: Jin! Jin! Jin! We have to go back! Turn around!
JACK: We can't do it!
SUN: We have to! We need to go back!

And we know what happens next. Jack then refuses to allow Lapidus to go back and look for Jin.

He is more concerned with keeping his promise to fix things and get them off the island than he is with allowing situations to dictate a new course of action. He is unshakeable not because he is a hero, but because he simply cannot allow himself to fail.

I think we also have to remember this guy



This is what happens to a man who is scared of failure, when he fails. Out of all the 06 he is the only one to descend into drug addiction. Even Hurley, who was slightly insane before, wanted to go back to Santa Rosa to get treatment because he is not afraid of admitting when he has a problem.

Jack screwed up his relationship with Aaron and Kate because he was scared. Another failure.

So....is this guy really a hero?



Last edited by StitchExp626 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:19 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by TheHolyStickman on Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:21 pm

Hi guys! Just want to welcome everyone to the first all-female debate so far. I hope it proves to be a gooden! Very Happy

SunnyP - You say that Jack is Coward because he is driven by the need not to fail. This to me doesn't sound like the characteristics of a coward. Had Jack been so scared of failure that he couldn't bring himself to lead he could have easily passed the role on to Sayid. In the early episodes Sayid was shown talking to all the survivors about rations and how they cold survive until rescue came. Jack could have simply passes the infomation on to Sayid that the transiever wasn't working.

He could have been the quiet doctor in the camp. But no, because of his upbringing and his characteristics he was driven to lead the camp, he was the one who went after Ethan when he kidnapped Claire, he was the one who didn't sleep because he was helping people, he didn't sleep until he was so tired he was delusional. Jack became the natural leader of a group of forty scared plane crash survivors, which isnt an easy job, now throw in a smoke monster, a group of others and a computer that saves the world and you've got yourself a damn had job.
Jack is not driven by fear of failure, he is driven by the need to save people.

Hope - You say that Jack is a hero because he has always had one goal; to save everyone on the island. But since the end of season one Jack has become less and less of a hero. Let me take you back to season one for a moment. Locke and Boone (Remember him) are in the jungle looking for a way to open the hatch, a couple of crazy dreams later they are looking for a Nigerean drug plane. Locke falls down because of a 'bad leg' and so Boone has to climb the plane. And tragically dies. When Locke comes back Jack tries to kill him because someone died while Locke was trying to do something that would save everyone. So now two seasons later Jack is alone with Ben. Ben has a walkie and is in contact with Tom someone who could potentially kill three of the losties. Jack doesnt give over the phone and then Tom 'shoots' all three of them. This is exactly what Locke did in season one. Except that Jack risked three peoples lives instead of one persons.

What I am trying to say is that Jack has become unsure as to what his goals are anymore. When originally it was 'Stick together and we're all getting off the island' now its 'some off is better than none'. Jack then didnt do what was best, he didnt think it through and decide on the best course of action. He is now closed minded thinking only about getting anyone off the island.
These are not the actions of a hero, these are the actions of a selfish coward.

TheHolyStickman
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:53 pm

SBP - I can't help but feel your definition of hero pretty much means someone who behaves perfectly.

A hero isn't someone who is never wrong, nor never does a wrong thing.

And THS made a good point that if fear of failure is his biggest concern, then a coward could allow that fear to beat them. Jack doesn't. Jack presses on.

Hope - Your piece really frustrated me! The first half was so good, and I thought, having outlined the template of a hero, you would then lay Jack upon it and show how he fit, and at what stage of the hero journey he was on. . .

But you didn'! Argh! For a minute there I thought you were delivering an unbeatable piece and it tailed off into a description of stuff Jack did.

For me, the crucial aspect is this: It's agreed Jack started out in the show as a hero. Slowly certain other personality traits have emerged (his anger, his controlling nature, his behaviour in the season finale) that ask the question of whether this is simply a 'dark night of the soul' for Jack and that he will eventually come good, heroic - or whether he is on a downward spiral and all his actions are only the beginnings of his unravelling.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by Irocz28 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:10 pm

Let me first start by saying that I think this debate would have been more fair if the topic had just been "Is Jack a Hero?" Then you can debate that he is a hero or that he isn't a hero. Coward is such a strong word. I'm not sure if there is anyone on Lost that fits that word entirely.

That being said:
Hope, I disagree with AC with your side of the argument. I definitely could have done without the first half of your debate. We have four seasons of information to work with here. I don't think you needed to use up so many words with Christ, Cerberus, and Darth Vader references. Just stating the facts about his numerous heroic acts on Lost probably would have gotten the job done.

SP, I think you did the best you could given your side of the argument. However, many of the occasions in which you say Jack acted "cowardly" I disagree with. When he chose to leave Jin behind, he was doing it for the best interest of the group. What was he supposed to do? Wait for Jin and have all 8 of them die in the explosion?

And he couldn't go back for Jin after the explosion. At the time he made this decision, the island hadn't disapeered yet and they had limited fuel. If they went back for Jin, they definitely wouldn't of had enough fuel to make it back to the island. It is true that looking back in hindsight this was irrelevant as they crashed in the water anyway, but at the time he made the decision, it was the right one.

And just because he took 5 seconds to regain his composure after cutting the young girl during surgery, doesn't make him a coward. What was the end result? He fixed her. He got the job done. Even heroes freeze once in a while under big pressure. But, the true heroes have the fortitude to regain their composure and go forward, which is what he did.

I still haven't made up my mind as to who I am siding with yet.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by vincentthedog on Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:54 pm

For me a hero is someone who presses on even though they are afraid. Fear does not make you a coward not doing something because of fear makes you a coward, doing it inspite of fear makes one a hero. Sorry to disagree with are lovely administator.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by TheHolyStickman on Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:09 pm

vincentthedog wrote:For me a hero is someone who presses on even though they are afraid. Fear does not make you a coward not doing something because of fear makes you a coward, doing it inspite of fear makes one a hero. Sorry to disagree with are lovely administator.

I completely agree with you there Vincent. Having no fear at all does not make you a hero, it makes you inhuman.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by vincentthedog on Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:36 pm

All on Jacobs list must agree .Very Happy


Last edited by vincentthedog on Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : stupidity)
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by Lateralus on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:13 pm

We have to see Jack be the running coward now becuase later on that will set up him redeeming himself, cowboy-ing up and become the hero the survivors expected him to be.

kinda like when Han Solo split with the cash right before the battle of Alderaan, only to swoop in at the last minute and save Lukes butt. They even gave him a medal for it and made him a general.

Or better yet, Gary Cooper in High Noon. There is a perfect example for a hero. Will Kane is scared to death that he is the only man that is going to stand up against the bandits coming to town. Everyone in town abandons him as they hide. He stands alone not because he wants to, he wants to run like the others, but because no one else will.
Thats a hero for me, the one who will do the things no one else will do regardless of what will happen to them self.

How about Spock at the end of The Wrath of Kahn. That's a real hero moment."the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few"
"or the one"
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by Hope on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:33 pm

I hate to admit it AC but I agree with you. My first part to me was awesome. The second just didn't work. So I will try my best here.

In each story that represents a Hero's Journey, the hero must experience steps that represent the struggle for inside. Jack got on the plane that delivered him to the island.


In each story that represents a Hero's Journey, the hero must experience steps that represent the struggle for inside. His issues with his father and the pyschological abuse that Christian dished out on Jack.

The Hero's Journey begins with either an inner longing to go on a quest, or an exterior call that enlists the aid of the hero. Heroes may, at first, refuse the call, or may at once respond to the call. There is usually some resistance to the call because it means leaving a comfortable existence to walk into unknown physical and psychological danger. Jack got on the plane and it delivered him to the island. He was def. reluctant to take that role because like Jax said "he was affraid".


In some cases, a guide or supernatural aid will direct the first part of the Hero's Journey. Such is the case in various Biblical passages where God, for example, instructs Noah to build an ark, or where angels reveal the path Christ must follow. The next step is a crossing of the threshold, the moment when the hero must leave the known world and venture into parts unknown. This part I see Boone telling Jack to talk to Rose as part of Jacks Journey, his guide. Then the actual conversation with Rose as him crossing the threshold. Here is a sample of their conversation.

ROSE: His fingers swell.
JACK: Sorry?
ROSE: Bernard, my husband, his hands swell up whenever we fly.
JACK: The altitude.
ROSE: He started having me hold onto his ring whenever we took a plane trip. Always wore it around my neck for safe keeping. Just until we landed. You know, doctor, you don't have to keep your promise.
JACK: Promise?
ROSE: The one you gave me on the plane. The one you made me -- to keep me company until my husband got back from the restroom. I'm letting you off the hook.
JACK: Well, you're not going to get rid of me that easily. Rose, you shouldn't be out here alone. You're suffering from Post Traumatic Shock.
ROSE: Aren't we all?
JACK: Yeah, I guess we are.
ROSE: You have a nice way about you. A good soul, patient, caring. I suppose that's why you became a doctor.
JACK: Thanks but I was just kind of born into it. Family Business.

In the Hero's Journey, one may encounter a threshold guardian, who tries to discourage the hero from the crossing. In Greek myths, travels to the underworld mean getting past Cerberus, the three-headed dog, and physically crossing the river Styx. The threshold crossing is symbolically interpreted as entering the unconscious psyche. In the episode White Rabbit Jack goes goes on some sorta spiritual journey, following his father around the island until he discovers the caves and the fresh water. This is the best example I have for this.


Once into the unconscious, the hero frequently has moments of doubt and despair, called “The Belly of the Whale.” This despair is short lived and is followed by various trials that will test the hero and reveal to him his true nature. There are many examples here. Jack reaction after Boones death, his reactions after the drowning girls death, his reaction when he finds out Claire has been kidnapped. But each time Jack goes into the jungle trying to save some one, or find some one.


The final conflict prior to returning to the normal world is confrontation with the father figure. In some cases this means killing the father, while in others it means in some way vanquishing the father’s power over oneself. In The Return of the Jedi for example, Luke offers his father Darth Vader a chance to redeem himself, instead of taking up his light saber to slay him. Luke saves Vader from his own evil nature, and though Vader dies, Luke has now dealt with that which exhibited ultimate control over him.
I believe this is yet to be seen. This will be his confrontation with Christian (dead I know) where he must deal with the inner issues he has with his father and realize how wrong Christian was (Speculation)



THS, his actions when Ben was willing to shoot the three people, in my eyes was Jack taking Bens power away. If Ben kept all that power over Jack then hopes of rescue were diminished.


Last edited by Hope on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : weird green text)
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by katesawjack on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Irocz28 wrote:Let me first start by saying that I think this debate would have been more fair if the topic had just been "Is Jack a Hero?" Then you can debate that he is a hero or that he isn't a hero. Coward is such a strong word. I'm not sure if there is anyone on Lost that fits that word entirely.
I agree with Irocz28 completely on this,for these reasons.

1. If all that concerns you is whether you live or die, and not whether anyone else lives or dies, then you are a coward regardless of whether you live or die.

2. If you are able to put the fate of other people above your own without care for any reward you will receive for doing so, then you will have acted heroically and will be a hero to those people.

Real heroes do not choose to be heroes. They don't act, they react.

Fear
The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear and, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters.

So I would have to say ,that by using this logic that would make Jack a Hero.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by TheHolyStickman on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:53 pm

Hope wrote:

THS, his actions when Ben was willing to shoot the three people, in my eyes was Jack taking Bens power away. If Ben kept all that power over Jack then hopes of rescue were diminished.

Still, he risked 3 peoples lives. It seems that Jack has turned into a Ben-like character in some respects. Ben - Does whatever he can to protect the island, regardless of the means. Jack - Does whatever he can to get people off the island, regardless of the means.

Will post more later. TheHolyStickman
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by MollyCocktail on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:00 pm

Jack is no hero.
He pouts too much.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by Hope on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:06 pm

heres my problem with that....
Jack had to do that. If he didn't, then the others would be in control and Jack woudn't be able to rescue the majority of the people. All hope would be lost, and besides Jin, Sayid and Bernard were willing to die it seemed for that cause...So I am not seeing where this is a problem I guess.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by TheHolyStickman on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:27 pm

Hope wrote:heres my problem with that....
Jack had to do that. If he didn't, then the others would be in control and Jack woudn't be able to rescue the majority of the people. All hope would be lost, and besides Jin, Sayid and Bernard were willing to die it seemed for that cause...So I am not seeing where this is a problem I guess.

I see, thats a good point. Then it seemed that they were all going to be rescued and those three were willing to help at all costs. Ok Hope, you win this battle but you havent won the war! queen
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by nino_1 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:13 pm

heroes are not made they become, and being a leader is a hard job sometime leadres make desitions that we will regret in the future. but those desition can save lives despite making sacrifices
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by wtfsignmeup on Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:07 am

I agree with Irocz that coward is a harsh word and SunnyP has got a tough argument to win. Great job to both of you though.

One of the problems I have with the belief that Jack is going to cowboy up is the complete lack of character growth. There seems to be no evolution, he's completely controlled by his ego. He loves Kate and needs her around in the same way he needed Sarah. Because they look to him as a hero. He craves this. Juliet actually saw him as he was and liked him anyway.Jack couldn't have a romance with someone who can see him faults and all.

Personally, I think most of the characters are on a hero's journey and Jack is the most obvious hero of the show. Just don't be surprised if his lack of character evolution and the fact that 'he walks among us but he's not one of us' doesn't mean that he might be the one character who doesn't overcome his daddy issues. (unlikely)
Hope, Sawyer didn't steal the inhalers.
And he never withheld the medication. He just saw two crazy mofos called Jack and John and thought the stuff might be better controlled by him. Shocked
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by blonde on Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:51 am

Alright, so when do we vote? How long do they have to debate?
Confused...
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by StitchExp626 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:53 am

Blonde

the challenge is open for questions for 48 hours, when a poll will be added to decide the winner.


Stitch
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by katesawjack on Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:13 am

If Jack had agreed to go back for Jin, knowing that the freighter could blow at any time, it could have meant death for all of them on the helicopter.
Jin might possibly have jumped off the freighter before it blew up.
Remember in season one ,that Jin did survive the raft blowing up.

So I ask ,was that a cowardly act or an heroic one ?
I think Jack did what he had to, by not going back, and risking everyone on the helicopter being killed.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by Hope on Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:25 am

I agree with you KSJ. And WTF, even if Sawyer didn't steal the inhalers, he didn't give Shannon the inhaler when she clearly needed it. I am not picking on Sawyer, I know you are a die hard fan, but Sawyer was using this for personal gain
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by AngeloComet on Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:27 am

Jin was a judgement call, and he's used to making them.

Think back to Man Of Science, Man Of Faith, when the two people from the car crash came in. Both critical. Jack made a judgement call then to ignore one and operate on the other.

The one he operated on survived, and eventually became his wife, Sarah.

The one he didn't help died, and that was Shannon's father.

Jack's a hero to Sarah - is he a coward to Shannon?
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by wtfsignmeup on Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:31 am

Hope wrote:I agree with you KSJ. And WTF, even if Sawyer didn't steal the inhalers, he didn't give Shannon the inhaler when she clearly needed it. I am not picking on Sawyer, I know you are a die hard fan, but Sawyer was using this for personal gain
He didn't have the inhaler
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by wtfsignmeup on Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:41 am

Jin was a judgement call and probably a smart one. But, sorry, the heroic action would have been for Jack to tell Lapidus to leave without him if he wasn't back with Jin in 30 seconds.
We're talking about heroics and reacting to situations heroically. Jack said he was responsible for that flock but he left them scurrying around on the freighter and flew away.
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by AngeloComet on Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:40 am

(Aside: WTF, your current Jazz Hands (of doom) avatar is brilliance.)
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:13 pm

The terms heros and cowards are both packed with baggage so let's look at this a bit differently. This is for both SP and Hope to respond to.

My dad was a pilot and a WWII veteran and when you talk to many of the men who fought in that war you hear them say over and over that they were scared to death but didn't want to let down their fellow soldiers.

When you hear interviews of astronauts in the early days of the space program they always say that they didn't want to "screw the pooche" their way of saying they didn't want to mess up the mission becasue they made a mistake.

Both of these groups of men are rightfully considered heros and both list their primary motivations as fear. Not screwing up.

So if these guys, doing heroic things but being motivated by fear, are heroes, is Jack, who also seems be motivated by fear, a hero too?

If I save an orphange full of children from a buring building for no other reason than I want to be famous, am I still a hero? Does it matter what you are or if you are a good guy or a bad guy? Sawyer, a con man who has killed at least two people, can arguably be considered a hero because he jumped from a helicopter. Does a heroic act alone make you a hero?

If, by the end of the series, Jack succeeds in saving everyone , does he become a hero again, regardless of how low he sank in the flash forwards?

Finally, "do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one?" Jack said not to go back for Jin (one) to get those on the chopper (many) to safety.
He thought he was allowing Ben to have Jin, Bernard and Sayid shot (few) so that he could have a chance to get the rest of the Losties (many)rescued.

If the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, isn't jack making the tough calls in the above examples and isn't making the tough life and death calls a mark of a hero?
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Re: debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

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