Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

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Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by MollyCocktail on Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:36 pm

In the new DHARMA video Chang/Mittlewick/Candle mentions that he was brought to the island to "conduct experiments to study the Kerr metric solution to the Einstein field equation...." blah blah blah.

Here's an interesting fact about the Kerr solution:

The Kerr metric permits closed, time-like loops in which a band of
travellers returns to the same place after moving for a finite time by
their own clock; however, they return to the same place and time, as seen by an outside observer.

What does this mean? I have no idea. I'm no astro-physicist!
But you must admit that this small Wikipedia excerpt just pulled back a MAJOR layer on the onion that is LOST.
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by vincentthedog on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:49 pm

I thought it was interesting when he said they needed to reconstitute Darma. Does this mean stop the purge which he says is ineviatable or to form a new one???
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by Igs on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:01 pm

From the video:

"I'm begging you, no matter what's happened, it's imperative that the DHARMA Initiative be reconstituted. You have to continue the research [static] and you have to do it now. "

It appears that Dr. Chang is directing the persons watching the video to reconstitute Dharam in the future (i.e. "YOU have to continue research"). This reconstituted Dharma, it appears, may be able to somehow interfere with/stop the Purge (i.e. "Perhaps you'll be able to find a way to save us, to change the past and to... [static] Please, you have to stop what's about to happen, you can't let it...).

It appears, if preferable, Dr. Chang would like a reconstitued Dharma to prevent the Purge. However, if they cannot, he wants Dharma to continue its research

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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by solarchap on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:05 pm

MollyC, the time-aspect always hurts my head so, but I love it, this post will open the floodgates to some mind-bending ideas & I look forward to reading them.

I am reading Michio Kaku's latest book 'The physics of the impossible' and the two pages he writes concerning Roy Kerr in chapter 11 'faster than light' deal specifically with Black Holes, Wormholes and Alice in wonderland is also mentioned. (ok thats not so surprising considering Charles dodgson was a mathmetician/quantum physicist! but still!).

Kerr said that the 'rim' of a spinning black hole is "the rim of Alice's looking glass"
the words "solutions to the Einstein equations" are in the book specifically related to the allowing of a wormhole.
I know none of this is new, but I think that Pierre Chang video should rightfully re-ignite these questions so well done for posting.
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by tracker on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:11 pm

MollyCocktail wrote:In the new DHARMA video Chang/Mittlewick/Candle mentions that he was brought to the island to "conduct experiments to study the Kerr metric solution to the Einstein field equation...." blah blah blah.

Here's an interesting fact about the Kerr solution:

The Kerr metric permits closed, time-like loops in which a band of
travellers returns to the same place after moving for a finite time by
their own clock; however, they return to the same place and time, as seen by an outside observer.

What does this mean? I have no idea. I'm no astro-physicist!
But you must admit that this small Wikipedia excerpt just pulled back a MAJOR layer on the onion that is LOST.

Molly...this is very interesting. I believe this definition to mean that time appears to be passing normally to the traveller but is actually looping around to the beginning. I think this does hint strongly that the show will show someone is in a time loop. Nice catch!
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by nino_1 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:24 pm

Igs wrote:From the video:

"I'm begging you, no matter what's happened, it's imperative that the DHARMA Initiative be reconstituted. You have to continue the research [static] and you have to do it now. "

It appears that Dr. Chang is directing the persons watching the video to reconstitute Dharam in the future (i.e. "YOU have to continue research"). This reconstituted Dharma, it appears, may be able to somehow interfere with/stop the Purge (i.e. "Perhaps you'll be able to find a way to save us, to change the past and to... [static] Please, you have to stop what's about to happen, you can't let it...).

It appears, if preferable, Dr. Chang would like a reconstitued Dharma to prevent the Purge. However, if they cannot, he wants Dharma to continue its research

i believe that mr chang is adressing us, we whants us to form the new dharma thats why the new ARG is gonna start and we the fans are gonna bee the new dharma.
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by vincentthedog on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:36 pm

I`m with you nino, let take over the island.
Tracker we have seen one character in a time loop of sorts... Hourace.
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by dabiatchishere on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:45 pm

I responded to a theory about the Kerr Metric System on another website. I will include the entire post, including the theorist, to give full credit, along with my response to it.

I thought it was an absolutely brilliant post, and certainly gives us some idea where the show is heading in Season 5. Good Job, Molly! Very Happy


'The Kerr metric solution to the Einstein field equation'



by SLDF_Gunslinger on Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:45 pm For those of you who have seen the newest Marvin Candle/Pierre Cheng video from ComiCon, you will notice that he was brought to the Island to study Kerr's equations. So, I decided to get busy Googling. Now, I'n no astrphysicist, but it looks like this could go a long way in explaining a lot of the mysteries about the Island.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric

Read the second paragraph and tell me what you think of its implications to The Island!

"Even stranger phenomena can be observed within the innermost region of this spacetime, such as some forms of time travel. For example, the Kerr metric permits closed, time-like loops in which a band of travellers returns to the same place after moving for a finite time by their own clock; however, they return to the same place and time, as seen by an outside observer.



Then there is something that could explain the necessity of the Swan:

The possibility of extracting spin energy from a rotating black hole was first proposed by the mathematician Roger Penrose in 1969 and is thus called the Penrose process. Rotating black holes in astrophysics are a potential source of large amounts of energy and are used to explain energetic phenomena, such as gamma ray bursts.


Gamma ray bursts, like when the sky turned purple when the Swan imploded? Gamma Rays are at the far (purple) end of the EM spectrum.

How about those of you who are more mathmatically inclinded have a look at this Wiki entry and tell me what you think. There are so many other interesting links in this entry that I'm having a hard time digesting it all!

"Time is not of the essence, it IS the essence!"

This was my response.


Re: 'The Kerr metric solution to the Einstein field equation'



by dabiatchishere on Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:28 pm Hi Gunslinger, I was just reading about the Kerr Metric System last night on Wikipedia, and also 'antipodes' as it pertains to the 'Frozen Donkey Wheel', and the connection to Tunisia, and the polar Bear remains. I also read a very good theory pertaining to these phenomena, which sounds entirely plausible.

I wholeheartedly concur that the phenomena of the Kerr Metric System does apply to the time differential on 'the island'. I am not an expert, just an enthusiast, so hope I interpret properly.

'The island' has NOT been physically moved, and only appears to be moved to the outside world. For those on the Island, the trip through time is instantaneous. To outside observers, however, the Island disappears until the rest of the world catches up in time, at which point it miraculously reappears. During the interim, the Island effectively ceases to exist in our world and cannot be accessed by anyone.

In addition, those on the outside world, time continues to pass, however upon returning to 'the island', they find, that time on 'the island' remains the same.

I can see how this will play a huge part in the next season, as to the methods employed by 'the losties' to get back to 'the island', and where time stands when they finally arrive there.

Very thought provoking!
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by AngeloComet on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:49 pm

Yeah, for the ARG Dr. Chang is imploring the Dharma Initiative get re-constituted. But will this Kerr business exist beyond the ARG? (They'll have a hard time trying to sell the notion, of course, but then they've sold some hard concepts to us (like Constants, for example) before. . .)

My interpretation of it was that this "small band" of travellers basically get to go into the future, see what it's all about, and then end up back where they started - presumably by moving in a timeline that runs at a faster pace than regular time.

But then the loop comes back and they end up like Chang in the video, knowing about future events in the video and in the problematic situation of not being able to do anything about it. (Good old Course Correction - another lofty idea that's been sold to us already!)
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by nino_1 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:03 pm

AngeloComet wrote:

knowing about future events in the video and in the problematic situation of not being able to do anything about it. (Good old Course Correction - another lofty idea that's been sold to us already!)

yeah the writes and producers love to toy with us the fans Cool
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by Irocz28 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:45 am

MollyCocktail wrote:The Kerr metric permits closed, time-like loops in which a band of travellers returns to the same place after moving for a finite time by
their own clock; however, they return to the same place and time, as seen by an outside observer.

Good post Molly. AC, you and I might be on the same page if I understand your comment correctly. If this Kerr definition is a sign of things to come, I may have an explanation.

We have all been wondering what the present time will be the next season. For example, all flashbacks or flashforwards so far have been anchored around the fact that the present time was the events occuring with our Losties on the island.

But now, we have some Losties definitely off the island in the present time. So how will their centric episodes play out? I can't see a "Jack Centric" episode being the present time with him off the island, and a flashforward with him still off the island.... but just a few years ahead. That would be kinda boring, since we all sort of know how it is going to end up: Him a drunken, doped up mess. The same goes for Hurley, Kate, Sayid, and Sun. Although there are some holes to fill in we all know how they will end up.

So the Kerr definition says: time-like loops in which a band of travellers returns to the same place after moving for a finite time by their own clock; however, they return to the same place and time, as seen by an outside observer.

How about this? The O6 and everyone else who will go back to the island to the same time and place as seen by an outside observer. This same place and time is the island on 12/31/2004, the same day they left. So they return to the same place after moving for a finite time by their own clock. I know this is confusing, even to me, but that is what I think that Kerr definition implies.

Therefore, when they do return to the island, it will be as though they never left to any third party (everyone on the island). Therefore the "present time" will still be the "island time" and the flashbacks (or are they flashforwards?) of the 06, Ben, Frank, and Desmond, will be the events leading up to how they got back to the island.

I know that is confusing and I am not saying I entirely believe it myself, but the Kerr definition that Molly posted above seems to be implying this.

The MAJOR hole is, of course, Locke. If they bring Lockes coffin back to the island, you also have a living, breathing Locke on the island. How would that work? I have no idea, but if anyone can make it happen its the Lost writers and producers.
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by StitchExp626 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:00 am

Irocz28 wrote: I can't see a "Jack Centric" episode being the present time with him off the island, and a flashforward with him still off the island.... but just a few years ahead. That would be kinda boring, since we all sort of know how it is going to end up: Him a drunken, doped up mess.

Irocz This is the state that Jacked up being at the end of season three and season four. But I think that Ben has now given Jack a task where he gets to save others. The type of activity that he seems to live for. I think that the post season 4 Jack will get himself together as he now has some work to do.

I think if the Losties are able to go back to a point in time on the island then what point would that be, it would be hard for the producers to tell the story from the beginning as this would mean having to have lots of past characters on set again, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Mr Eko, Shannon, Boone, Charlie, Michael, Nikki, Paulo, Dr Arntz, young small Walt, reassembling this group could be more difficult than time travel itself.

My guess is that the most decisive point that they can go back to is where Locke appears on the scene and tells Jack not to make the call and then throws the knife at Naomi. To be rescued from this point would simply require sending an instruction to the man on the boat Kevin Johnston/Michael to answer one of the incoming calls from Penny and give her the the coordinates and the correct bearing to get to the island.

The idea that the purge can be prevented is one that raises interesting issues. Dr Chang in his video plea seems to hint at two things, one that the purge was going to occurr very soon after the videoing and that he knows that he will lose his arm! So this raises the strangest question of all is if he knows what will happen then why doesn't he do something more active to change the coming events rather than request help from people 30 years in the future. Unless what they need to alter events in the past does not exist until 30 years later.


MollyCocktail wrote:The Kerr metric permits closed, time-like loops in which a band of travellers returns to the same place after moving for a finite time by
their own clock; however, they return to the same place and time, as seen by an outside observer.



Lost is amazing as it motivates us yet again to research and study physics as part our leisure activity.

Well done Molly

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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by StitchExp626 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:24 am

The Kerr Metric reminds me of



where for the poor people in this alternative universe keep moving up and forward but in reality they are being returned to the same starting point constantly.

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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by AngeloComet on Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:52 am

Iroc: the O6 appearing back on the Island just before they 'left' would, handily, avoid paradox problems.

That is, they don't run any risk of running into themselves since they were either on a helicopter or turning frozen donkey wheels - so being back on the Island won't disrupt things.

That being said, I don't believe that will be the way of it. (3 years seems an awful long time for this 'time loop', and will somewhat make a mockery of the claim that the flashforwards are real and set in stone.)

That being said, I can see where you're coming from regarding the change in narrative the writers have discussed and this time loop - time moving at different speed in a circuit, perhaps - does fit the bill.
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by MollyCocktail on Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:25 pm

I know everyone is anti-paradox but to me, paradox is a pretty cool concept and I wouldn't mind seeing what the producers could do with it.
The haven't disappointed me so far.
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Re: Pierre Chang's work / Kerr Solution...

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:47 am

The universe is a self-correcting mechanism (where have I heard that before?) Paradoxes can't happen or else they would happen...i.e.: no backwards time travel.

"No Time Travel...it's not just a good idea, it's the law!"

But this is Lost, isn't it
Very Happy

Good read Molly!
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