THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

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THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:14 am

Iíve been thinking about how the island could be moved and what problems would occur in the real world if that happened. An island is basically the very top of a (usually) volcanic mountain which just happens to stick out of the water. That means the bulk of the island is below the surface as shown below:



When the island disappeared it would have created a vacuum in the space that it previously occupied. As a result, the water and air surrounding the island would have not only rushed in as it was being pushed by the weight of the water around it but it also would have also been PULLED in by the vacuum (not exactly pulled, but that is the laymanís explanation of the effect). This is how NASA makes a supersonic wind tunnel. They not only push air into a chamber at a high rate of speed but they also draw the air out of the other side of the chamber by using pumps to create a vacuum. When they rapidly open the door to the vacuum chamber the air is both pushed AND pulled into the chamber. The air in this kind of wind tunnel moves at supersonic, sometimes hypersonic speeds and this is what would happen to the water and air surrounding the island.



What would be the effects of something like 300 cubic miles of rock instantly vanishing from the ocean in the manner we saw? Well first of all, the air and water rushing in to fill the vacuum would pull anything in the air or in the water towards it in a very violent manner, most likely at supersonic speeds! In other words, the helicopter, Faradayís Zodiac boat, birds, seaweed, air, clouds, boar farts and anything else in the general vicinity would be pulled towards the center of the disturbance.



The resulting energy released would be staggering as the air and water from all sides made contact and that amount of energy does not just ďgo away.Ē And the effects would not be localized to the general area of the island either. The result would be a tsunami of massive proportions radiating outward in a circular pattern from the source.



The Polynesian and Cook island chains would be hit by a tidal wave anywhere from 10-50í high as would any landmass within hundreds of miles, including Hawaii. Areas further away would be impacted less as the wave would increasingly loose energy as it traveled farther from the source of the disturbance.



So how could this scenario be avoided and why do we only see the slightest of disturbances after the island vanishes?

Well Iíve read some theories saying that the island moved in time. Iíve also seen the converse that says the island moved only in space and the combination theory that states the island moved in both time and space.

I donít think that any of these theories satisfactorily explain the observed consequences of the island vanishing.

I believe that there was very little disturbance because the island was never really there.

Yes, I shall explain further. I do believe that the island was there in the sense that it had mass, was a physical object and that it occupied space. I donít, however, believe that the island was ever full connected to our reality and thus, our space-time. I think the island is part of this world but at the same time, not fully a part of our world. It is out of sync, substantial and ethereal simultaneously. It, to a small extent, affects itís surroundings like any other physical object but is not completely connected to it so when it vanished, it doesnít have the effect that something as large as Hilo Hawaii disappearing would have on itís environment.

Think of smoke suddenly vanishing-there is an effect but it is not as dramatic as the smokestack disappearing as well.

And just the part of the island above water disappearing wouldnít change things that much. Any phenomena which resulted in the island moving would form in the center and would radiate outward in a spherical shape. Anything inside that sphere would vanish with the island. Even a smaller sphere would have to have a radius of at least 8-12 miles and would, conversely, leave a vacuum in the air and water many miles in diameter.



Perhaps the ďnegatively-charged exotic matterĒ on the island knocks the island out of sync with our space-time or perhaps the island itself is inherently unstable and the exotic matter stabilizes it in our reality. Or perhaps it is a question of inter-dimensionality; the island is not really part of our world or our reality but the exotic matter sort of brings it into contact with our universe, dimension, continuum or (insert your favorite pseudo-scientific term here) I can hear Daniel Faraday mumbling it now: ďWellÖumÖya see...well the island isnít reallyÖumÖpart of ourÖuhÖworldÖif you know what I meanÖĒ

This could also explain why the island is so hard to find or leave and why there are so many near-impossible to explain phenomena on our favorite island.

The island is there, but not REALLY there at the same time.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by AngeloComet on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:46 am

Good identification of what should have happened. Like it.

Have you considered what potential scope there is for the 'bubble' around the Island being factored in?

I mean, if we imagine the 'Island' is contained within, indeed, a "snow globe" - a globe that somehow displaces mass? Like the way an iceberg, when it melts, doesn't raise the water level due to displacement?

So if the Island and surrounding area vanishes within the snow globe - mass displaced - the effect on the surrounding area becomes negligible?
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:10 pm

If I understand the question, AC, yes, I have. If it is a "bubble", it affects it's surroundings and, if linked to the island, therefore would vanish with the island. If it does, matter rushes in and fills the hole left behind.
If it does not leave with the island, there is an empty sphere of air, land and water where the island was. It would look like an empty bowl-shaped depression in the water with a dome-shaped vacuum above it...not what we observed in the finale'

The iceberg comparision is apt but only to the extent that if you suddenly make the iceburg vanish, it also would leave an empty space behind where it displaced air and water, also causing the surrounding matter to rush in towards the center of the void.

Incidentally, the island reappearing somewhere else would have the same affect, billions of tons or water and air pushed rapidly out of the way, again causing a giant tidal wave.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by AngeloComet on Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:21 pm

MSHL - the reason I am so strident towards the 'bubble' is due to the disappearance of both Hydra Island and, almost certainly, Faraday and the Zodiac raft.

We saw a vicinity disappear, not just an Island.

Now I agree, in the sense that if it were a giant snowglobe it would make no difference - the mass of the snowglobe object disappearing would create the same sudden void and so the same pressure effects you discuss.

I used the term displacement, but maybe magnetism would provide a better illustration for what I mean.

Consider two horseshoe magnets pointing towards each other with a gap between them. These are very highly charged magnets. (Don't pick me up on the forthcoming science here - I'm no expert, just trying to illustrate an idea!)

Now between these magnets we hang a small, metal ball-bearing. And the ball hangs in space - affixed by this magnetism.

With me so far? (As I said, if it takes a postive and a negative magnet, or two of each, whatever, I don't know - my aim here is illustration.)

Now if we take the ball-bearing away, the magnets don't collapse inwards. The effect of magnetism affords displacement of a fashion. We could produce that on a large scale and the effect would be the same. And given the curious, large-size electromagnetic effect the Island possesses I can't help but wonder if this might help explain the matter.

Or I might have just unloaded a load of bollocks.

Shocked
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by SomeArztOnYou on Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:05 pm

As I read MSHL's post, I was thinking the same thing about the "bubble" as AC mentioned. I'll take it one step further, though...

Say the Island is surrounded by some sort of bubble/force field/snow globe mechanism. When the Island "vanished," the "bubble" may not have only protected the surrounding area from the "Moses parting the Red Sea" effect (sorry, that's all I could think of when I saw the third picture MSHL posted). What if, wherever/whenever the Island appeared, the "bubble" replaced everything inside it in its original location/timeline with that which it was displacing in its new location/timeline. So, if the Island was moving to somewhere in open water, all the water that the bubble was going to displace simply moved to the bubble's original location/timeline. This might explain the very mild effects that were observed by the O6 from the helicopter. Would also make for some disoriented fishies.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by vincentthedog on Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:34 pm

If I understand this bubble holds in all the displaced water/energy from the island moving but wouldn`t the sudden apperance of the bubble create some displacement aswell?
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:56 pm

Interesing MSHL I like it. The explanation behind the island moving will definatley be that, the bubble theory or the island only moved in time.

Your explanation was a little blurred. If you say the island is only connected to this world physically. So then surely the island takes up space in the water, so when you move it, it's wave time.

The only way I can possibley think of the island moving through space and not in a bubble is that it was swapped instantly for a body of water the same size. That would cause a small disturbance as we saw in the season 4 finale.

AC I don't get the bubble theory... Sad The island is held in place by two electromagnets and when you move the island the magnets don't move but the sea and air still would. Right? Could you explain it again.

At the moment I still believe that the island moving in time is the most likley option, but its not neccessarily the one I want to happen.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by Lateralus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:39 pm

I tend to lean towards the magnetic time-space bubble idea. If the exotic matter is what caused the island move, and has kept the island invisible, then it must radiate some kind of energy that encapsulates the island within it.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:13 pm

I've always held that the "bubble theory" is an appropriate one. (see illustration #6 in the theory above) Any energetic field that could move the island would form and expand in a spherical shape- it is the basic structure of such a phenonena and is the simplest structure found in nature.

But I don't think your magnatism example would hold up. we are still talking about billions of tons of matter simply winking out of existance. and in your example, the space left by the disappearing ball would then be filled by the fields of the magnets-same result, different ingredients.

I know that my theory is hard to put into words HSM but I am basically saying that the island is not fully connected to our world, not full a part of it.
When you are on it, the island is as real and substantial as the island you are on but when you are on the outside looking in, the island is not so substantial. It is not completely anchored in our spacetime and therefore can be moved since it is on the borderline of "not really being there" anyway.

SomeArzt, I considered the "matter replacement" idea but it seems to add yet anothe complicated step to an already complicated process. It also involves and active mechanism to seek out a specific location, determine just the right amount of mass to move and then to simultaniously swap the island with that mass. Comes off as a bit too Star Trek-ish transporterery (and yes, that is a word...sort of)
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by SomeArztOnYou on Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:15 pm

Hey, I have no problem with buying Star Trek physics to explain Lost. I'm sure Darlton wouldn't have a problem with it either.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:30 pm

I' still a little cuffuddled by it. I'll think about it over night. Things always make sense when you can't sleep at half two at night. Right?
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by SomeArztOnYou on Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:33 pm

I've done some of my more creative thinking in the wee hours.

Sometimes even sober.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by Lateralus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:45 pm

TheHolyStickman wrote: half two at night. Right?

I love that!
Is that English for Two-Thirty?
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:14 am

Yeah, Lat.

Half-two, as in half past two.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by dabiatchishere on Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:52 am

What an awesome post MSHL and brilliant discussion, with differing points of views. I completely enjoyed reading it!

I am not very literate I'm afraid when it comes to sicentific matters, but have enough reason to understand and follow the gist in general terms, somewhat.

As both yourself and AC do have better understanding of the subject, I would like to offer you, some further information from Wikipedia for your consideration. I think you both may find the information satisfying, as it pertains to "the island", in addition to the use of the "Frozen Donkey Wheel". I have seen other theories written on the subject, and it seems like a plausible and reasonable conclusion for "the islands" apparent disappearance. Not to mention, Bens appearance in the Tunisian desert, in the same general vicinity as the polar bear!

Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by TheHolyStickman on Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:16 pm

If you like that then you will love England.
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by Lateralus on Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:21 pm

If i ever get a chance and the cash to leave the US, that's my first stop. I'll be practicing my Canadian accent 'till then eh
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by dabiatchishere on Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:19 pm

Lateralus wrote:If i ever get a chance and the cash to leave the US, that's my first stop. I'll be practicing my Canadian accent 'till then eh


lol! Yes Lateralus, we Canadians prefer 'eh' to 'huh'. Sounds less like we are experiencing a bout of gas!! Wink
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:03 pm

Lateralus, I have bad news..if you are FROM Little Rock it is impossible for you to do a Canadian accent, or British, or Russian, or Swedish...
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
But you would love the UK, especially London!
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by Lateralus on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:35 pm

Oh, take off eh.... Anyone can do it if they drink enough of that Moosehead crap. Very Happy



Last edited by Lateralus on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:37 pm

Hey Moosehead is good beer...except for the moose pee in it

But not as good as Olde Frothingslosh beer... the original pale stale ale with the foam on the bottom!


Last edited by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by Lateralus on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:39 pm

Any MSTies out there?


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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:49 pm

that is so sweet...I'm tearing up as I type

I loved MST3K
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by dabiatchishere on Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:30 am

Lateralus wrote:Any MSTies out there?



[b]So, I guess I can take it, that you don't like 'Canadians', eh?



PS: The alcohol content in OUR beer, far surpasses, that watered down 'suds', y'all drink, and have the nerve to call, BEER! Such an insult to beer! scratch
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Re: THE ISLAND ISNíT REALLY THERE.

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:05 am

Get him Dab, get him!

p.s.
the alcohol content of the average Canadian also surpasses the average American too!

Take that you mean old Lateralus
lol!

WOW, we're really off topic here, aren't we
ain't life grand?
Very Happy
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