Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

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Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Fri May 16, 2008 1:00 pm

How does the island (or maybe Jacob---they could be one in the same) affect those not on the island? More specifically, how and did the island manipulate the survivors into boarding flight 815?

There are two different theories in this regard:
1. The island (or some other person, thing or organization) did not influence the circumstances which led the Losties to board flight 815 and just used the survivors of the crash that it thought may be of value to itís suit it's own purpose after the crash.
2. The island directly influenced the Losties to get them on the right flight in order to bring them to the island to serve itís goals.

I used to believe theory #1 (and I still do) but I feel that there is now sufficient evidence to show that the islandís reach into the lives of the Losties is more extensive than previously thought. For example: the island preventing Michael in his attempts to kill himself while he was halfway around the world.

I think the best evidence to support the theory that the island influenced the Losties PRIOR to the flight can be found in the case of the Australian psychic Richard Malkin. As far as his psychic abilities are concerned, he is a self-confessed fraud. He has no psychic powers and does what every other psychic in the world does-he gathers information on his subjects, observes their reactions and makes best guesses based on research, body language, demographics and the words, dress and appearance of those on which he is doing the reading.

But during the reading he did for Claire, he had a very obvious and (apparently) very real reaction that led him to tell her that she must be the one to raise her child. Since Malkin, in his own words, is a fraud, what caused this reaction, insight, epiphany or whatever other term you wish to apply to what he foresaw.

I think that this is the point where the island influence came into play, sending the vision to Malkin and setting into motion the chain of events which caused Claire to board flight 815.

This theory, unfortunately, also leads to some other unsavory conclusions about the islandís influence over the other Losties since many, if not most of the significant survivors of 815 were on the flight for reasons relating to death. Jack is there to bring his dead father home, Kate killed her step father and fled to Australia, Anna Lucia was a part of the events which led to Christian Sheppardís death, Sawyer was there to kill who he thought was responsible for his parents deaths, Michael and Walt were there because of the death of Waltís mom. Hurley is seeking to remove a perceived curse that he thinks is on him due to all of the deaths around him.

If the island did cause these events in order to bring these people to the island, it has racked up quite a death toll to this point. Being wanted by the island appears to be about as safe as going duck hunting with Dick Cheney!

If this is the case and the island was directly manipulating events to bring who it wanted to the island, thus leading to the conclusion that the island will do anything it needs to fulfill itís own agenda. In this respect, Ben and the island (or again, perhaps Jacob) are mirror images of each other, each doing what it they think is necessary, regardless of the cost in human life, to accomplish the islandís goals. This is apparently the road that John Locke is now traveling down as well.

However, as is always the case with Lost, answers usually raise even more questions. And here is a big one: If the island has such power as to influence all of the Losties into boarding flight 815 then why did it not use that power to prevent the current attacks by the Widmore Mercenaries? The island could have, for example, killed a friend or relative of Keamy or, for that matter, Keamy himself. It could have made Faraday forget where he lived and get hit by a car while wandering the streets. It could have done a billion different things to influence the people now threatening it. But it didnít!

Why it didnít take preventative action against the Widmore assault is, I believe, fairly straightforward-because itís power is not great enough to do so. If it did, it would not have to carry out the twisted and convoluted measures through which it is now goingÖit would have taken preventative action BEFORE the shit hit the fan. If it canít influence the attackers before they attack, then why would we assume that it maneuvered the Losties onto flight 815?

For those who would say that something has weakened the island so that it didnít have the power to stop the attackers, please remember that it is about to physically or temporally move itself somewhere/sometime else! That will take a LOT more power than keeping a gun from firing or making someone get on an airplane. Its not like an episode of Star Trek where the island is weak because Kirk and Spock have prevented the innocent islanders from cramming mangos down itís stone dinosaur head to replenish itís energy reserves.

If the island has the power to carry out the kind of interventions on the thousand of lives that led to the Losties all winding up on flight 815 then it also has the power to have stopped the Widmore attacks. It is that simple. Either the power is there or it is not and if the island had the ability to stop the mercenaries and it didnít use it, that can only mean that the island WANTED to be attacked! (More on this point in my next theoryÖso no filching my ideas. geek )

There are glaring inconsistencies when it comes to figuring out the powers of the island. It has the power at it's disposal to move it's several hundred-billion ton mass to another location or time but not enough power to stop a freighter and a small handful of mercenaries?

Can the island influence people and events? Absolutely. Did it directly influence the Losties to be on flight 815? Iíd have to say no...but you tell me.
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by Fate on Fri May 16, 2008 3:17 pm

I think the island prevents problems or makes stuff happen by using travellers. In the case of 815 they had all the time to manipulate the passengers onto the plane. But it was ONE of the passengers who suddenly switched off the jamming equipment and got those freighters to the island. The island would only be able to defend itself by using travelers and undoing it....but hey...course correction:O

Thats why the island needs john to move the place
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by eda on Fri May 16, 2008 3:58 pm

I definitely agree that up to this point it wasn't made clear whether the island wants to be found or stay hidden.

I don't think that the island caused all that death though. It might have picked those people on purpose, ones who had tragic experiences with their parents for some reason just before the flight-except for Locke, Aaron and maybe Hurley, or it could all have been just a coincidence- which of course means the choice of the writers of the show, to stress their influences, such as Freudian storytelling(the characters who kill their fathers) or famous characters on different books and films. How would the island know about manipulating people by using their sense of guilt caused by the death of their parent/ex , which they may in fact have secretly wished for ?
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Fri May 16, 2008 4:13 pm

I see your point EDA, but you have to remember that all of the death surrounding the Losties before they got on the plane were KEY to their getting on 815. Without those deaths, most of them would not be where they wound up.
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Fri May 16, 2008 4:16 pm

Im reminded of the quote "do not stare too long into the abyss, for the abyss stares back" or something along those lines. Perhaps in being touched by death, they became noticed by the island once they landed there?

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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by Fate on Fri May 16, 2008 4:17 pm

The island has mysterious powers indeed Eda. I don't think we can all explain it with coincidence. It's hard to post a decent comment about this because the entire origin of Jacob and the island are still unclear. But in the end it led to them getting on oceanic 815. We should not forget that
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by eda on Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

I know what you mean. We don't know anything for sure yet. Every character has to be relevant to the plot, every character is there for a reason and what they have in common could either be highlighted or remain as a coincidence. But the only logical reason I can come up with for picking up people who have had serious issues caused by or leading to the death of their parents/loved ones could be that there is some prophecy to be fulfilled, and these were the candidates for a certain role on the island.
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Fri May 16, 2008 4:41 pm

They were also there as a result of making bad choices, which have been paralled in their experiences on the island. I'm not sure of its relevance, but if we're talking about common factors in the Oceanic 6 its worth thinking about perhaps.

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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by Obscure on Sat May 17, 2008 7:49 am

I just love your title: 'Psychics, mystics and frauds, oh my! Great reference!

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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by JimReaper on Sun May 18, 2008 3:54 am

I think that just like Ben, the island always has a plan, there are certain things that are supposed to happen, and the freighter arriving and Keamy and his boys coming to get Ben are just another step on the ladder to whatever is 'supposed to happen'.
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by AngeloComet on Sun May 18, 2008 10:36 pm

I have a hard time believing the Island (as in this mystical source of power we shall assume to be emanating from the Island that can, say, prevent Michael from killing himself) exerted influence before people crashed on the Island.

It's difficult enough to accept that the Island exerts power at all, of course, but in respect to Michael I can buy into it with one form of rational. Once a person is on the Island, they belong to the Island, and the Island wants them back. Even if it's just for them to die there.

If they do not go back, as with the O6 and, perhaps, Widmore, then these individuals are plagued by nightmares and visions (Widmore spoke of nightmares, Jack and Hurley have visions, and I believe even Walt has been said to suffer when sleeping). The nightmares and visions are a curse from the Island, and will only end when they return. That's my feeling on it.


Last edited by AngeloComet on Tue May 20, 2008 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by lonewolf on Sun May 18, 2008 10:45 pm

like when god said to pascal...you would not search for me had you not found me....
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by Fate on Mon May 19, 2008 12:18 pm

So AC your guess would be that the island is using what it was given, but won't let go. They never intended John to crash on the island but now that he is here. We find everything out about him and use him.

Sounds plausible
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by lostlikeyou on Tue May 20, 2008 9:51 pm

What about this idea...I think the plane crashing on the island is pure coincidence. We know it crashed because Desmonds didn't put the numbers in. We know that Abaddon approached John and convinced him to go on a walk-about, or in other words, set things up for him to get on the plane, before it crashed. We also know people travel back in time on this island. SO.....why couldn't the plane have crashed, and Richard, Abaddon, who-ever, went back in time and ensured that certain individuals where on the plane? The first thing Ben says when the plane crashes is I want a list of all survivors. There are too many connections with the losties for it not to be intentional....

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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by nino_1 on Tue May 20, 2008 10:13 pm

a little of toppic here.

what if the island kill juliet ex husband? i mean charlie visit hurley.
so what if the smoke monster manifest as a bus? you can buuu me all you want now.


Last edited by nino_1 on Tue May 20, 2008 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by AngeloComet on Tue May 20, 2008 10:25 pm

Nino

"what if the smoke monster manifest as a bus"

I don't know how to "buuuu" you, as I don't know what that means. I will, however, say that sounds fairly implausible. I think Smokey, surely, has to at least be restricted to the Island. (Although those that thing the Black Smoke is the incarnation of Christian Shephard, etc, will argue otherwise. I'm not sure about that any more.)

Fate

I think Locke was probably engineered to be on the Island, and possibly there were other people on Oceanic 815 that were intended to be there. That involves a whole series of difficult concepts to get around, but it's looking more and more likely. So I won't disregard the idea of intentional design to the people being on the Island. However, perhaps not everyone was supposed to be there (not everyone was engineered onto the flight, and some of them managed to survive) but I stand by my conviction that anyone that has been to the Island is not willingly allowed to leave and remain off the Island for a long period of time without being forced to suffer (be it nightmares, visions, etc).
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by nino_1 on Tue May 20, 2008 10:53 pm

AC buuuuu its like when in a game or concert something goes wrong or somebody made a mistake then the people start ®buuuu get him of the stage®or whatever and i said because i know its very unlikely that smokey can manifest to something solid. Very Happy
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by AngeloComet on Tue May 20, 2008 11:31 pm

Ah.

I would state that as: "Boooo!"

You've got something in your teeth.
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Re: Did the island DIRECTLY manipulate the Losties onto 815? Psychics and Others and deaths, oh my!

Post by nino_1 on Tue May 20, 2008 11:38 pm

thanks. its that better? Laughing
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