WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

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WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:20 am

Not really a BIG theory, more like several medium theories on the course of the next Lost season that may add up to a big one.

Okay, so I was wrong way back when with my thoughtful and utterly incorrect theory on why it HAD to be Ben in the coffin. Fine, so it was Locke...I'm not bitter (grumble, grumble)

Item #1: HOW Locke got in the coffin.

My first (and admittedly most obvious) theory is that Widmore's henchmen caught up with him and murdered him.
I know the most obvious is usually wrong when it come to Lost but in this case it is too logical to be discounted.

Locke works for the island...Widmore wants the island...His goons get Locke, try to get info out of him or get him to work for CW...Locke says "don't tell me what I can't do."...Widmore goons kill Locke.

Other alternatives:
Locke killed himself. Either out of despair at failing to get the others back or because he himself has been banished by Jacob...not likely.

Jacob killed him for failing to succeed at getting the others back. Nope. That would leave the Others leaderless and what would be the point of killing Locke anyway?

My vote: Widmore put him in the box.

(Wild alternative possibility bonus card: maybe Locke was an utter failure as the leader of the Others, was banished by Jacob like Ben was and is trying to get the O-6 back to the island to redeem himself)

Next on the menu: Born again Locke
I think we all agree that Locke will be back and the island will resurrect him. If not, Ben would not have to tell Jack that Locke's body has to go back to the island also. I'm pretty sure Ben doesn't want to use Locke's body as a trophy or for the next round of Othersville show and tell so the body has to go back for a reason-resurrection.

But an ethereal "glowing Ben Kenobi-like" Locke will not be sufficient nor will a "visiting you in your dreams" Locke be enough. It will have to be a flesh and blood, "Bring Spock's body to Mount Selaya Star Trek III, Katra transfer, if you prick me will I not bleed" Locke.


Next on the theory smorgasbord: HOW Ben will get them back to the island

Possibility #1 They all go to Hawaii and get on a chartered boat for a three hour tour, a three hour tour and hope that the weather gets rough and the tiny ship is tossed. (sorry, couldn’t resist the Gilligan’s island jokes)
Nope, boats are too slow and it is a big planet.

Possibility #2 They all get on a plane can fly around till they crash on the island for a second time. Don’t laugh, but I like this one. And if you are a fan of the “They all wound up on this island as part of a plan” theory (still utter crap to me) then you should like this one too.
If Jacob really wants them back on the island and they are all on an airliner together then it doesn’t matter what their flight's destination is, they will wind up on the island. If they are all there as part of some master plan then they will be manipulated into getting on the correct plane at the correct time and will be sitting in the correct seats and order the correct crappy in-flight meal in order to bring them to the island.

Reasons why I think this is correct.

1. Ben mentioned Jack’s flying around and hoping to crash activities in the finale’. he mentioned this for a reason…that was what he meant by “I have a few ideas” and I think it is a clue as to what will happen in the future

2. It is circular and it has symmetry. Writers love symmetry. They love a story to return to where it begins and the O-6 crashing back where they started is so symmetrical it makes my teeth hurt.


finally: Bad things happened after we left…
Jack’s words, but what do they mean?
Possibilities:
1. The island moved to an inhospitable place. i.e.: Antarctica.
Sounds dumb…why would Jacob allow the island to move someplace where the Others or the island itself could be hurt? The movement of the island is controllable and controlled. Otherwise it could pop up in the middle of Pittsburgh PA as easily as it could in the Indian ocean.

2. Jacob was pissed off and the Others felt his wrath.
Wrong God. Besides, the Others are the instrumentality of Jacob and they would not be punished or hurt…he needs them.

3. Widmore finds the island.
Possible, but due to the timeframe I think it highly unlikely. Locke/Bentham tells Jack that bad things happened after he left but the point where Jack and Ben are at the funeral parlor is pretty close to the timeframe of Ben’s late night visit to Widmore so I don’t see that as being possible. There just isn’t the time for Ben to visit Widmore, for Widmore to find the island and do bad things, for Locke to visit the O-6, for Locke to die and for Ben and Jack to be at the funeral parlor.
Of course, if CW finds the island and bad things happened after Ben visits CW and then Locke traveled BACK IN TIME to get this message to the O-6 then that would make the timeframe irrelevant and workable...though hopelessly confusing to the average viewer

4. There is something wrong with the island and it requires the O-6 to fix it.
I have no idea what that means but perhaps when the island vanished, it encountered problems. Maybe it needs something the O-6 has (maybe Aaron) Maybe the O-6 are a part of the island now (or maybe always were) and the Island needs them to be whole again.

Any way I look at it, the “bad things happened” line is the one that is the most open to interpretation and is the one that has me the most intrigued.
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by JWLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:26 am

Holy crap, why did you pick Pittsburgh, PA?! I hope the island ends up here!!! I would be freakin' thrilled if I woke up and there was Sawyer and Juliet in my backyard drinking Dharma Rum!

I think you rely on Jacob a little too much. I don't think Jacob controls everything, because if he did... then the 06 would have never left. I think Jacob is a powerful man, but only when it comes to the island, not the outside world so much.

My question is this... even though I am writing a season based on the concept and have my idea of why, but..... why do the 06 all have to go back? I mean, why does Locke's dead body have to go back, why does Walt probably have to go back, why does Sayid have to go back? I mean... according to the lists Hurley wasn't even meant to be there. Soooo why does he have to go back? If they go back will the bad things just stop out of nowhere? That is where I get confused.
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by StitchExp626 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:43 am

Why because the aim is to prevent Jack from making that phone call to the freighter. I think that everyone who was there at the time that phone call was made will need to go back. Walt probably not! But if there is a way to change the past, save Danielle and Rousseau, then it is that fateful moment that they need to change.

Ben if he was clever would have told Jack not to make the call as he had a man on the boat who may be able to really help!

It's my theory but prob wrong!

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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:44 am

I picked Pittsburgh becasue I am a Steeler fan and I grew up less than a hour from the Burgh!

Jacob is a contradiction. All-powerful yet limited.

I think it is the writers who are relying on Jacob too much. And he does have a great deal of power off the island.

He can stop Michael from killing himself or dying in a car wreck (this is DIRECT INTERVENTION) but can't stop the frieghter from getting to the island. IT makes no sense.

And you are right, I also wondered why some had to go back. Was Hurley "discoverd" while on the island. Did he make a big impression on Jacob? Does Giant Walt have to go back too or just the O-6?
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by JWLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:49 am

It is a sound idea, but if you think about it... the frieghter was already there. Do you think that if Naomi never called the frieghter they wouldn't have come to the island anyway? I mean, if that is the whole reason that Jacob needs them back then it is a weak storyline.

I think they all need to be back for a future conflict that is going to be Earth shattering, pun intended. I do think that Walt needs to go back though because Bentham didn't visit him for no reason.
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:50 am

Its not a matter of is it wrong, it is a matter of is it consistant and plausable.

If Jacob didn't want the call made, he could have stopped it. He stopped TWO guns from killing Michael. TWO! that means he can physically manipulate objects on and off the island. Surley he could have stopped a phone call.

If Jacob is trying to change the past that means he can move between the past, present and future and that would make him all-powerful.

It would also mean that everything that happens is destiny and Jacob is just playing his part since he knows the outcome. But that would mean he is not all-powerful. You see the quandry here? He knows what is going to happen but cannot change it. If he could change it the O-6 would have never left the island.
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by JWLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:52 am

I don't think that it is Jacob who stopped Michael from killing himself... I think it is the Universe that stopped him. Michael had to be on that boat for a reason and that reason was to delay the explosion enough for the 06 to get in the air.

I think that it was the Universe Course Correcting by jamming Michael's gun... I don't think Jacob necessarily stopped it. It is something that Michael had to do.... however, how exactly does Tom know that Michael's job isn't done? Did Ben tell him? If Ben told him, then Jacob must have told Ben... but how does Jacob know these things? Who is Jacob? I could go for hours in circles.
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:59 am

Universe...nope
Jacob...yes

Tom directly questioned Michael on what happened to the gun, which tells me it is Jacob's style or modus operandi...something Tom would be aware of.

yes, who or what is Jacob? And here's a question: Why is Jacob?
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by JWLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:04 am

Mrs. Hawking made a point about the universe and fate... and I think Jacob somehow tapped into the universe and knows what it holds... maybe he is an earthly moderator here to ensure the universe works the way it needs to work... well, maybe not so much earthly as a hybrid of earthly and something else... I don't know... I guess we will have to wait and see, now won't we?
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by MyStarbuckHatesLost on Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:24 am

Yes we will. and the waiting is KILLING ME!!!!!!! affraid
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by retroactiveman on Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:03 pm

Starbucks: what do you think of the Steelers chances this year?
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by MollyCocktail on Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:53 pm

And now I shall attempt my very first point-by-point
response / commentary:


Item #1: HOW Locke got in the coffin.

My first (and admittedly most obvious) theory is that Widmore's henchmen caught
up with him and murdered him.
I know the most obvious is usually wrong when it come to Lost but in this case
it is too logical to be discounted.


-Ben murdered him. (I’ll
explain why later in this post) Wink


Locke works for the island...Widmore wants the island...His goons get Locke,
try to get info out of him or get him to work for CW...Locke says "don't
tell me what I can't do."...Widmore goons kill Locke.


-Locke doesn’t work for the island, I thinks its more
accurate to say that the island works through
Locke.

Other alternatives:
Locke killed himself. Either out of despair at failing to get the others back
or because he himself has been banished by Jacob...not likely.

-Way back in the days of LT when the coffin contents were the
source of much debate, I proposed that it was Locke because of the obit
mentioning suicide.

I felt confident that if Locke was off the island he would
commit suicide because he would no longer be able to walk, which would be more
devastating then anything else.

But I’ve changed my mind.

Ben killed him. I am sure of it.

Jacob killed him for failing to succeed at getting the others back. Nope. That
would leave the Others leaderless and what would be the point of killing Locke
anyway?

-Jacob and murderer don’t work in the same sentence. Not for me.

My vote: Widmore put him in the box.

-Disagree.

(Wild alternative possibility bonus card: maybe Locke was an utter failure as
the leader of the Others, was banished by Jacob like Ben was and is trying to
get the O-6 back to the island to redeem himself)

-There is no doubt in my mind that Locke was in fact an
utter failure at leading the Others.
But the blame lies entirely with Ben…he set Locke up to take the fall.


The most important thing Ben said in all of Season 4 was, “How
many times do I have to tell you John?! I always have a plan!” He is painted as a “good guy” for “sacrificing”
himself by turning the wheel. Don’t fall
for it. He knew exactly what he was
doing.

The only way Ben could get back into the Others’ good graces
was by turning control over to Locke….knowing he would fail. It is a massive set-up all designed by Ben for
the expressed purpose of regaining control.


Next on the menu: Born again Locke
I think we all agree that Locke will be back and the island will resurrect him.
If not, Ben would not have to tell Jack that Locke's body has to go back to the
island also. I'm pretty sure Ben doesn't want to use Locke's body as a trophy
or for the next round of Othersville show and tell so the body has to go back
for a reason-resurrection.

-I agree that resurrection is in the cards, but I don’t
think it is part of Ben’s plan.

It is more likely that Ben is pulling an Anthony Cooper
scenario. Remember when Ben told Locke
to “return with your father’s dead body on your back or not at all.”? My guess is that Ben will be retuning to the
Others with Locke’s dead body on his back to “prove” that Locke was never the
right man for the job.


But an ethereal "glowing Ben Kenobi-like" Locke will not be
sufficient nor will a "visiting you in your dreams" Locke be enough.
It will have to be a flesh and blood, "Bring Spock's body to Mount Selaya
Star Trek III, Katra transfer, if you prick me will I not bleed" Locke.

-Ahhh Star Trek.
Without it, there would be no LOST.

“"That green-blooded Son of a Bitch. It's his revenge
for all those arguments he lost to me." ~McCoy.



Next on the theory smorgasbord: HOW Ben will get them back to the
island


Possibility #1 They all go to Hawaii and get on a chartered boat for a three
hour tour, a three hour tour and hope that the weather gets rough and the tiny
ship is tossed. (sorry, couldn’t resist the Gilligan’s island jokes)
Nope, boats are too slow and it is a big planet.

-Gilligan was an ass.
The Professor was the only person on that island that got anything done.
And I agree with you here….no boats for Mr. Linus.


Possibility #2 They all get on a plane can fly around till they crash on the
island for a second time. Don’t laugh, but I like this one. And if you are a
fan of the “They all wound up on this island as part of a plan” theory (still
utter crap to me) then you should like this one too.
If Jacob really wants them back on the island and they are all on an airliner
together then it doesn’t matter what their flight's destination is, they will
wind up on the island. If they are all there as part of some master plan then
they will be manipulated into getting on the correct plane at the correct time
and will be sitting in the correct seats and order the correct crappy in-flight
meal in order to bring them to the island.

-Hmmm…what do they do about all the non-island folk who
would no doubt be on this airplane, assuming they take a commercial
airliner? It seems more likely that Ben
would charter a private plane or hijack a Widmore/Paik one.


Reasons why I think this is correct.

1. Ben mentioned Jack’s flying around and hoping to crash activities in the
finale’. he mentioned this for a reason…that was what he meant by “I have a few
ideas” and I think it is a clue as to what will happen in the future

-I don’t think his ideas include a commercial aircraft
though….


2. It is circular and it has symmetry. Writers love symmetry. They love a story
to return to where it begins and the O-6 crashing back where they started is so
symmetrical it makes my teeth hurt.

-Amen!


finally: Bad things happened after we left…
Jack’s words, but what do they mean?
Possibilities:
1. The island moved to an inhospitable place. i.e.: Antarctica.

Sounds dumb…why would Jacob allow the island to move someplace where the Others
or the island itself could be hurt? The movement of the island is controllable
and controlled. Otherwise it could pop up in the middle of Pittsburgh
PA as easily as it could in the Indian ocean.

- Ben knows EXACTLY where the island moved to.

He moved it to an inhospitable place / point-in-time on
purpose…all part of his plan to reassert his commend. I
doubt its Pittsburgh
though.



Wink

2. Jacob was pissed off and the Others felt his wrath.
Wrong God. Besides, the Others are the instrumentality of Jacob and they would
not be punished or hurt…he needs them.

-Meh….not sure about this yet.

3. Widmore finds the island.
Possible, but due to the timeframe I think it highly unlikely. Locke/Bentham
tells Jack that bad things happened after he left but the point where Jack and
Ben are at the funeral parlor is pretty close to the timeframe of Ben’s late
night visit to Widmore so I don’t see that as being possible. There just isn’t
the time for Ben to visit Widmore, for Widmore to find the island and do bad
things, for Locke to visit the O-6, for Locke to die and for Ben and Jack to be
at the funeral parlor.
Of course, if CW finds the island and bad things happened after Ben visits CW
and then Locke traveled BACK IN TIME to get this message to the O-6 then that
would make the timeframe irrelevant and workable...though hopelessly confusing
to the average viewer

-I definitely think that Season 5 will feature Locke’s
Adventures in Time Travel.


In my opinion, this is why he was murdered. Ben silenced him for attempting to warn the
O6 of danger. They were “never supposed
to leave the island”. Perhaps by doing so,
they disrupted the time line creating paradox.


4. There is something wrong with the island and it requires the O-6 to fix it.
I have no idea what that means but perhaps when the island vanished, it
encountered problems. Maybe it needs something the O-6 has (maybe Aaron) Maybe
the O-6 are a part of the island now (or maybe always were) and the Island needs them to be whole again.

-There is something wrong with the island: paradox.

Any way I look at it, the “bad things happened” line is the one that is the
most open to interpretation and is the one that has me the most intrigued.


-Nicely done Starbuck!


A very fun read!
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by wtfsignmeup on Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:16 pm

Great theory and responses. Especially Mollys!
There is something wrong with the island.paradox
Yeah!

As for how the 06 get back, I won't be at all surprised if they wake up on the island ala Juliet. Orange juice style.
Although I still hold out hope that it will involve the famous airstrip on the Hydra island, and Frank flies them in.
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by dabiatchishere on Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:00 pm

MSHL, I am so glad you brought up the subject of Locke being dead, and the island being moved!

Personally, I don't believe Locke is dead! If you subscribe to the notion of what Mr. Friendly told Michael last season, which was "the island won't let you die, until its ready", it provides you with some skepticism that this is true.

I believe Widmore was searching for Locke and the other 06, but Ben outfoxed him again, by faking Locke's supposed suicide.

Ben has a plan! Leaving Locke in control of 'the island' was part of that plan.

The island did NOT physically move! It was displaced in the time-space continuum.

Great thoughts!
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Re: WHY Locke is in the coffin and other theories...

Post by SamiLost on Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:38 pm

GR8 post MSHL but I must disagree with a few points in here:

Item #1: HOW Locke got in the coffin.
I don’t think it was Widmore’s job. This just doesn’t work for me. Why should Widmore kill Locke? Plus I don’t think Locke is an easy target. How does Widmore know about Locke? How does he know Locke must be killed? What does he gain by killing Locke? No, I don’t think he killed Locke!
I am more inclined to “Locke killed himself” theory. Why? That, I’m not sure about! It could be what Molly said (Ben killed him Anthony Cooper style) or it could be that Ben told him that he is supposed to die and get resurrected. So he killed himself knowing that he had a duty to fulfill after going back to the island and resurrecting!

HOW Ben will get them back to the island
Crashing on the island? No I don’t think so. Yes it has symmetry but I don’t think it is the case. Just doesn’t make sense to me because there are other ways to get to the island. We already know that Tom gets on and off the island freely. So does Mr EverYoung! So there are other ways and there is also teleportation (or whatever it was that Ben did).


4. There is something wrong with the island and it requires the O-6 to fix it.
Molly summed it up for me:
There is something wrong with the island: paradox

I think they must go back because by them leaving they created a paradox and universe is now coarse correcting harsh way!

As for your question: who or what is Jacob? And here's a question: Why is Jacob?
I agree with JWLost:
Mrs. Hawking made a point about the universe and fate... and I think Jacob somehow tapped into the universe and knows what it holds... maybe he is an earthly moderator here to ensure the universe works the way it needs to work... well, maybe not so much earthly as a hybrid of earthly and something else...

I think Jacob can travel in time, both past and future. He is stuck in space time and travels freely. Tom knew about the future (that Michael’s gun won’t shoot!) because Jacob told him.
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