Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

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Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:42 pm

With this piece I intend to clarify Desmond's mind time travel; addressing the subject of consciousness, the function of The Constant and what happens if no Constant is in place. My intention is to keep this as brief as I can, as clear as I can, and as easy-to-read as I can.

First let's consider consciousness. Apparently, when a mind travels to a different time (think of Desmond turning the Fail Safe in the Swan Station and 'waking up' covered in paint in Penny's flat) one consciousness takes over the other consciousness. Except "takes over" isn't quite right; I think it's more like a fusion where both consciousness' mesh together, with one consciousness taking precedence over the other. This merging of consciousness' is fundamental to understanding the whole principle so I'll do my best to spell this out.



Desmond in Penny's flat provides a perfect example. One moment 2004 Desmond is turning a Fail Safe, the next moment he is zapped back in time to Penny's flat (approximately 1996) where 1996 Desmond absorbs this 2004 consciousness. So the 1996 consciousness is well aware of who he is, where he is and when he is, and yet 1996 Desmond is partially aware of his 2004 consciousness. The microwave sounds like The Swan Station alarm. The model yacht in Widmore's office seems familiar. Slowly the 2004 consciousness takes firmer awareness (remembers Charlie, remembers Jimmy Lennon and the cricket bat) and Des' brain, fused with two consciousness', is able to reconcile the disparity.



One smack to the head later and 1996 Desmond and 2004 Desmond have worked out their differences and snapped back to the place they were supposed to be. No Constant necessary this time! Because both consciousness' managed to retain a hold of themselves, anchored by memories, the "side effect" issues don't appear.

So that was Flashes Before Your Eyes. Let's apply this 'fused consciousness' principle to events in The Constant. As we saw, 2004 Desmond was in a helicopter and then suddenly snapped back to 1996, in the army. 1996 Desmond woke up (that is, the 1996 consciousness) and assimilated, or fused, the memories and experiences of 2004 Desmond as if it were a vivid dream.



Desmond - "I'm sorry, sir. I was...I was having a dream, sir. . . I was in a helicopter, sir. And there was a storm, sir. And I don't remember the rest, sir."

This is where 2004 Desmond's consciousness was relegated to; the status of a faded dream. The two minds had merged, but the 1996 Desmond's consciousness took precedence entirely. In Flashes Before Your Eyes the two consciousness' had managed to mesh yet retain a level of awareness. In The Constant the 2004 Desmond was consumed completely by his 1996 counterpart. This is why, when Desmond returned to the helicopter, he had no idea how he got there or who Sayid was. This is why Desmond needed a Constant.

OK. I think we're doing well. Once the fused consciousness idea is grasped the rest of this a piece of cake. See, as we saw in Flashes Before Your Eyes, so long as you are aware of the dual, fused consciousness - that is, you know a part of your mind belongs to a different time - then you will get reset (a cricket bat should do the trick!) and put back to how you were. However, if you're like Desmond in The Constant, who had no awareness of his 2004 counterpart, you need to 'awaken' that dormant mind to produce dual consciousness.

That's all it is. In The Constant 1996 Desmond kickstarted his dormant 2004 consciousness by using his love for Penny to spark it into life. We even see the moment it happens. Whilst on The Freighter, when Des is talking to Penny in that memorably moving declaration of unyielding love, the scene is cut to show 1996 Desmond walking away from Penny's flat. He looks back, to her window, and smiles to himself. That smile, that was the awareness returning, I think. That was 2004 Desmond waking up, the memories coming back. The shared consciousness was understood and both 1996 and 2004 minds were reconciled and balance was restored.



There. Not so difficult to grasp. Those that like their endings happy can abandon ship here. For everyone else, let's finsh up by considering what it's like when you don't have a Constant and your consciousness decides to go time travelling. In short, let's consider what happened to Minkowski.



When 2004 Desmond went back to 1996 Desmond, it was 1996 Desmond that took priority of his consciousness. Minkowski, however, went the other way; his 2004 consciousness retained priority over the consciousness of whatever historical counterpart he was transported to. And so he found himself in a similar condition to Desmond in Flashes Before Your Eyes, experiencing his life with knowledge of the future. Desmond experienced that for a couple of days and it sent him fairly crazed; Minkowski had to deal with it for an awful lot longer. . .

Minkowski - "I was just on a ferris wheel."

The way I see it Minkowski would have been retreading events he previously lived through, and then occasionally snapping back to The Freighter to catch up with what had been happening whilst he had zoned out. Interestingly the issue of changing his fate may have occurred to him. That is, he may have decided to try and not wind up being a crew member onboard The Freighter whilst he was retreading his past. If he succeeded, that would create a paradox and would explain his death (the universe doesn't collapse in a paradox, as with Eloise the rat it's simply the 'thing' that created the paradox that gets wiped out).

Minkowski - "It's getting harder. It starts happening faster, too. . . I can't get back!"



However, as this piece of dialogue suggests, Course Correction kicked in and, no matter what he did Minkowski would end up on The Freighter, the same way Desmond would always end up back on the Island. And so, yo-yoing between the past and the present, with the past catching up with the present, eventually he may have been reliving boarding The Freighter, and pinging back to being on The Freighter with Sayid and Desmond. . . Faster and faster. . . Eventually his brain wouldn't know the difference, the yo-yo effect too acute for his brain to comprehend. And so: brain vessels explode and blood comes out of your nose and you die.

And that, I think, is pretty much that. And there I was thinking this was going to be tricky to explain. . .

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by emzi on Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:15 pm

Really good explaination of it, and a very interesting read Smile

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by Lateralus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:18 pm

Thanks,AC. Having someone organized all of that into one nice and easy read helps looooaaaadddds.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:19 pm

Read this on your blog, its easy to understand and reasonably short. Great work AC.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by nino_1 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:30 pm

very good analisys AC

I WONDER IF WE ARE GONNA SE MIKKOWSKY ON THE FERRIS SOMETIME IN THE S5
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by vincentthedog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:38 pm

Great job and interesting read as always!
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:51 pm

Very well explained! I had been having trouble getting my head around all of this but you, as always, have pulled it all together so it makes perfect sense Smile

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by kristenislost on Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:38 pm

AC, are you assuming Minkowski is bouncing back into the past (from the freighter/2004) or are you just tossing that out as one of two possibilities: that he could have been going into the past or the future when he finally snapped?

I actually believe that the difference between the type of consciousness shifting that went on in those 2 episodes depends on which direction one is traveling in, not necessarily that it was 2 different types of experiences.

Hear me out. In "Flashes" Desmond was "grounded" in the future, so the Desmond in 2004 retained all the memories of "Desmond" up until that point in time. He then traveled to 1996 and was able to be perfectly sane and "grounded" in both times, because he had remembered being there before. No need for insanity-the past wasn't something that completely threw his brain for a loop.

OK, so shift to "The Constant," where Desmond from 1996 travels to 2004. 1996 Desmond has nothing to anchor him to 2004, because he has no "memories" of 2004 for him to latch onto....hence the need for a constant. As soon as he talks to Penny (and when time had almost run out for him, judging by how fast he was jumping), he now has his anchor, and all the memories of Penny and the rest of his life until that point are instantly "downloaded" into his brain. Desmond of 1996 will be left with the "memories" of his time on the freighter in '04 and that he got in touch with Penny in the future, but his brain back then won't fill in the rest of the gaps. The constant is essentially a stand in for one's memories, and I think it's ONLY necessary when someone's present consciosness travels forward.

So, I assumed that Minkowski must be grounded in 2004 and therefore had to be "traveling forward" to a future time. I feel like if Minkowski was going into the past, he would have memories and therefore he wouldn't need a constant.

In other words, when your present consciousness travels back in time, no need for a constant, because in a sense your memories up until that day are your "constant." When your present consciousness travels forward or into the future, then you need a constant because you have no "memories" of the future.

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:32 pm

Kristen, personally I think a memory of either a past or a present is what avoids the need for a Constant. Desmond dimly remembered his future during Flashes Before Your Eyes and so could reconcile the two.

In The Constant his memory of the future (or 'present') was relegated to the status of faded dream and so he could not retrieve it and thus not reconcile it.

And the problem with your Minkowski notion is this: If Minkowski travelled to a point in the future - that is, at some point in the future he left The Freighter, went back to the main land and ended up on a Ferris Wheel - then we know he never did that.

He travelled to a future time that never occurred. That's Paradox City for me. It's better explained by the idea he travelled to a point in his past.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by kristenislost on Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:39 pm

OK, now that I'm thinking about this some more I'm realizing the conundrum. My brain hurts!!!!! OK, forget about what I just said, because what keeps 96 Desmond from going insane when 04 Desmond pops in, right? 96 is still encountering 04, which he has no memories of so far, so I have to be wrong.

Well, maybe the difference is simply Penny. When he jumps back the first time, he ends up in Penny's flat, so he has his constant. The "future" is relegated to a dream, which is probably what happens when 96 Desmond is looking up at Penny's window in the Constant. He will retain that "memory" of '04 and getting on the phone with Penny, but it will seem to him like it was a dream.

OK, after I posted I read your comment AC. The Minkowski thing does create a paradox, but only if you believe that there is one possible future and it is set in stone. Obviously in the Lost universe, that isn't true. Yes, the producers said something about not being able to "change the future," but I think it will all boil down to semantics. Desmond went back and "changed" something when he went back and met Daniel, or they would have remembered one another when they first met on the island. And it can't be argued that they just didn't remember one another, because Daniel specifically wrote that if anything went wrong, Desmond could be his constant. To be a constant, you have to care about someone, and you can't care about someone that you don't remember. There is a Daniel that didn't know Desmond, and a Daniel that did, so I'm assuming there could be a Minkowski that lived and one who didn't. I think I may be bleeding from the nose...

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by solarchap on Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:46 am

flippin' eck laddie! that was just superb!

I can't believe I sat there the other night trying to figure this all out, badly!, and I even posted asking about this very thing, and you had Ace'd it already!

AC all your work is fine, but this was particularly fine, a head-spinner neatly and simply stabilised. All my disorientating grief succumbed to an understandable path as I read your solution.

It was also great to read the discourse between kristenislost and yourself. I am going to lie to some of my friends and say that it was I who worked all this out, they will think I am great! Hope you don't mind!

Brilliant Post Nice one!
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by treesitter on Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:51 am

Minkowsky goes through the same thing as Desmond does in The Constant. Both mind(time)travel to the future from a prior self:

Desmond from 1996 ---> 2004
Minkowsky from sometime prior to 2004 ---> 2004

Both need a constant because they lack any relations to the freighter and the people on it.

Minkowsky says something like "You look a lot older now, don´t you?" when Desmond looks at himself in the mirror. For me it was proof that the confused Minkowsky experienced the same thing, when he saw his own reflection. His mind also is from prior to 2004.
We just don´t know which year a younger Minkowsky was on that mentioned ferris wheel.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by SunburnedPenguin on Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:57 am

Just had a thought....what if conciousness did swap, and the Desmond we see during The Constant is the conciousness that was misplaced during FBYE? Like The Constant is filling in the gaps to what happened to 1996 Des when 2004 Des went back in FBYE.

Not sure that made sense, its 6am and ive been up only 20 mins lol

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:03 am

Treesitter - I've argued this same point with Lojozz (at an unGodly hour after a lot of booze). He was insistent that people saying Desmond's mind travelled back in time were wrong and, like you, were adamant his 1996 consciousness went forward.

I believe that has to be wrong, because we saw 1996 Desmond wake up with dreams of being in the helicopter. Hence I posit here the 'fused consciousness' explanation with one consciousness taking precedence over the other. It's the only way this makes sense for me.

Minkowski's consciousness did go back to another time period, but it was his present day consciousness that took precedence over whatever period he travelled back to. (He did genuinely travel back and that consciousness took precedence.) He could remember The Freighter, the communications room sabotage, etc.

For his 'past' consciousness, this was probably like blacking out and experiencing dead spots of continuity whilst his 'future consciousness' took over. (I expect the same thing will happen to Desmond at some stage, to explain how he blanked out once when he was about to get married and, without knowing how he got there, found himself in the street with a monk there to help him. . .)

SolarChap - You're welcome, and feel free!

SBP - Not sure I'm with you on that swap idea; I can't really understand it when it's explained - God knows how they'd want to explain that on the show. But then things do work differently at six in the morning, so maybe in your time zone that idea works a lot better!
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Dude...

Post by Occam on Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:54 am

... there's no spoon mind time travel... Cool

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by treesitter on Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:19 am

AC, maybe you´re right. I totally forgot about Minkowsky´s knowledge about what happened to him and his pal on the freighter.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by StitchExp626 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:27 pm

A fine analysis of mind travelling but it seems odd that you discount Desmond's 1996 consciousness travelling forward to 2004. Surely your merging consciousness theory works both ways.

When Des wakes up he only appears to rember the helicopter, surely if it is his 2004 consciousness travelling back then Des in 1996 could access more than those few minutes when the helicopter hit the storm.

The following are some of the things that Des said in the episode:

DESMOND: Alright, who are you people?

OMAR: Whoa, buddy. Calm down.

DESMOND: What am I doing here? who are you people?

SAYID: My friend is disoriented!

DESMOND: I'm not your friend! I don't know you! I don't know you!


This sounds like the 1996 consciousness on the freighter in 2004.


Then back at the barracks in 1996

BILLY: What the hell's the matter with you, Des?

DESMOND: If I told you, you'd think I was crazy.

BILLY: I already know you're crazy.

DESMOND: This morning, when I was in the yard doing crunches, I left.

BILLY: What do you mean you left?

DESMOND: I was on a boat. And then I was back here...right where I started


This last line again is a strong indicator that the 1996 consciousness had travelled to 2004

Then at Oxford

DESMOND: Um, sorry. Are you Daniel Faraday?

DAN: And you are?

DESMOND: Um...sorry, I'm Desmond Hume, and um...I was told I could find you here. I think I've...just been to the future.


and

DAN: I don't know. I think Eloise's brain short-circuited. The jumps between the present and the future...she couldn't tell which was which, she had no anchor.

DESMOND: Wh...what do you mean, anchor?

DAN: Something familiar in both times. All this, see this is variables, it's random, it's chaotic. Every equation needs stability, something known. It's called a constant. Desmond, you have no constant. When you go to the future, nothing there is familiar. So if you want to stop this, then you need to find something there...something that you really, really care about....that also exists back here, in 1996.

It does seem that it is the 1996 consciousness only that sees nothing familiar in 2004.

and also the fact that Desmond does not understand what is happening to him as he tells Penny

PENNY: Just, say what you need to say and go.

DESMOND: I know this doesn't make any sense, because it doesn't make any sense to me. But...eight years from now...I need to call you, and I can't call you if I don't have your number.

PENNY: What?

So I think that the evidence points to the 1996 consciousness doing the travelling as opposed to the failsafe incident where it was the 2004 consciousness doing the travelling.

I think that your theory works just as well with this consciousness travelling scenario.



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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:22 pm

To paraphrase Han Solo, Didn't I just leave this party?

1996 Desmond wakes up believing he has dreamt of 2004. And then he stays in 1996. Therefore the 1996 consciousness didn't go anywhere. If you're suggesting it did go forward, all it did was take a 'peek' at 2004, be in a helicopter, and then come back to 1996.

That, for me, makes less sense than 2004 Des going back, merging with 1996, and being over-ridden by the 1996 consciousness.

After that, the 1996 consciousness is ruling the roost and does indeed travel forward to 2004 where it does indeed have no bloody clue about what's going on (but tucked away is the 2004 consciousness, unconsciously locked up and stuck until a connection with The Constant is made to release it and split the two apart).

But I stand by the notion that 2004 Des travelled back first.

In the same way Han Solo shot first, you know?
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by kristenislost on Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:15 pm

I think we're all ignoring a key piece of information: The first time Desmond travels in "Flashes" he encounters Penny, his constant, in her flat. So, that could explain why this is a "different" scenario for Desmond. In "The Constant," if Desmond's 1996 Consciousness had leapt forward in time to discover Penny in the helicopter with him, I don't think he would have had a problem.

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by StitchExp626 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:49 pm

AC

Damon and Carlton had this to say about The Constant in their podcast:


Carlton Cuse: Yeah. Now let's rehash episode 4:05, "The Constant".

Damon Lindelof: Yes!

Carlton Cuse: Is that impossible to rehash that episode? It makes my head hurt, actually.

Damon Lindelof: Here's the thing - I think we already rehashed it. And the versions of us in the past that rehashed "The Constant" might pop into our consciousnesses here (consciousnessi? I don't know, what is the plural of consciousness?) and then we can rehash it, because it feels like just breaking that episode was such a massive headache.

Carlton Cuse: It was, it was definitely like doing the hardest New York Times crossword puzzle for the week.

Damon Lindelof: I remember when we first tried to present to people what the idea was, and they looked at us like we were speaking a foreign language, it was like - Desmond from 1996, his consciousness is time traveling into 2004 on the freighter, so the Desmond that we know and love is very confused, because it's a guy from the past who's currently in military camp.

Carlton Cuse: Somehow it's actually easier for people to entertain the notion of someone time traveling backwards, but the idea that the show is sort of set on the island in 2004 but someone is traveling forward from 1996, that was pretty hard to -

Damon Lindelof: I mean, I always think like, if suddenly I were in my body 10 years from now, I'd be very confused by what was going on and who I was around and why I was writing on "Carnivore"-


I think that this merging of consciounesses is still a good point regardless of which direction that the consciousness travels.

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by AngeloComet on Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:19 pm

OK. I'm not sure if this point is being lost, or it's understood and this conversation is working at cross purposes.

I am not denying that 1996 consciousness travels forwards. It does.

What I am saying is the 2004 consciousness goes back first and then gets absorbed and superceded and thus left unknown by the 1996 consciousness.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by StitchExp626 on Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:30 pm

That makes it a bit clearer AC.
Your idea makes sense!

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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by vincentthedog on Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:49 am

Wow Stitch great dialog work. alien
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by TheHolyStickman on Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:12 pm

How do you make the writing smaller, AC.
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Re: Analysis Of Mind Time Travel

Post by vincentthedog on Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:57 pm

I could be wrong HSM but since AC usally post the same big therorys on his blog I would think he uses Word and pastes it in.
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