Re: The Cerberus - Autonomous or Controlled

by **Caged_Faraday** Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:33 pm

Lateralus wrote:I voted both because when Ben did control it, it just blew some dust up around Keamy's men and gave them a few bruises. Every other time Smokie comes in contact with someone, it gets pretty violent.
And the three smaller ones that come togther to form the bigger one(one that killed Eko) seem to have an intelegence all their own. Maybe even that of Judge, Jury, and Executioner. It does seem to leave alone Alperts crew, the "good" ones.
And if Dharma could have controled it, why the sonic fence to contain it?

It seems both may be the winner. If so, I have to defer to TheHolyStickMan, as that still falls in his arguement of an intelligent creature. Now I just have to figure out when the poll ends.

by Occam Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:11 am

As I keep thinking about the Island as "the silent character" of the show, in my opinion Smokey is nothing but one of the Island's manifestations of its powers. It's not a sentient being by itself; it's something like "the Island's arm". It grabs, and it pounces, and it "feels", but only because the Island makes it to.

So there's the explanation for my vote. Good work, both of you.

by **Caged_Faraday** Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:42 am

I just double checked. Poll should close at 14:30 EDT on Sunday. Few days left to vote.

by TheHolyStickman Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:11 pm

OK you havent given me much to go on here, but I'll try.

An airplane has an autopilot, are you going to argue it to be sentient, too? Many things can be given "automomy" without having intelligence.

Damn!

So you argue it was less sucessful against Keamy and company because of the "rules" it must obey?

No, not neccessarily rules just that it knows that things will only get worse if it interferes when it's uneccessary.

Not forgot. Chose not to. Makes Juliet (who's generally a bad actor) far more believable.

You sidestepped my point, I was saying that Ben wouldnt risk the whole operation just to make the story slightly more believeable, which it didnt.

So you're justifying the nature of the creature on an element of story writing?

Well, I think I am yes. You have to think how the producers think. An episode with smokey in would be good for a comeback and give us more info about it. But they have to keep Keamy alive because they need a dramatic finale. So the writers will already have a reason why it didnt kill Keamy.

Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

We dont know what the rest of the others know, so we cant argue this point any further.

TheHolyStickman

Ill try and give some more ideas for you to counter soon I just need to gather my thoughts first.

by **Caged_Faraday** Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:26 pm

TheHolyStickman wrote:Not forgot. Chose not to. Makes Juliet (who's generally a bad actor) far more believable.

You sidestepped my point, I was saying that Ben wouldnt risk the whole operation just to make the story slightly more believeable, which it didnt.

Absolutely I think he would. There are no limits to that which we call Benipulation.

TheHolyStickman wrote:So you're justifying the nature of the creature on an element of story writing?

Well, I think I am yes. You have to think how the producers think. An episode with smokey in would be good for a comeback and give us more info about it. But they have to keep Keamy alive because they need a dramatic finale. So the writers will already have a reason why it didnt kill Keamy.

I think the drama written in -- the decision to leave Keamy so he can pop up in a later scene -- bears no merit on the nature of Smokie. Creature or machine, smokie failed to get Keamy because the writers wanted it that way. I think it becomes a moot point.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

We dont know what the rest of the others know, so we cant argue this point any further.

We don't know most of anything we theorize on. I assume Ben's control over the Cerberus is not hidden knowledge. He revealed it to Locke & Co. I would believe those "in the know" of the Others would know as well. I think his going dowstairs and flipping the Cerberus switch is very significant to the point that the Cerberus is simply a device.

by MollyCocktail Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:51 pm

The Cerberus is a dog.
Its Vincent.

Yup.

by TheHolyStickman Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:13 pm

Interesting Molly, I'd love to see some evidence to support that. Evil or Very Mad

by MollyCocktail Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:35 pm

TheHolyStickman wrote:Interesting Molly, I'd love to see some evidence to support that.

::points to the picture of the dog in Jacob's cabin::

by TheHolyStickman Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:07 am

Ok Caged F, unless you spring up with a whole range of new ideas... I think the debate is over. As we've covered almost every aspect of the Smoke Monster.

by **Caged_Faraday** Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:34 am

I think we have. Voting ends tomorrow. But since I would need 4 more votes just to tie you... and since I would probably say that choice 3 really fits your argument as well, you're up 20 votes to 3, with 5 people agreeing with neither of us.

I'm willing to concede.

Since this isn't the official debate club challenge, I can't award... but I will gift you this fine avatar as a token to you for putting up a fine debate and a well fought win.
The Cerberus - Autonomous or Controlled - Page 2 Cerber10

The Cerberus - Autonomous or Controlled - Page 2 Cerber10

by TheHolyStickman Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:47 pm

Oh Wow thank you, Thank you, Thank you. I love you

I love it. I think that you were being a bit harsh on yourself there with the twenty to three thing. Its more of a 7 - 3 the other votes are neutral. That was a great debate. I hope I'll see you in the official ones later. Very Happy

TheHolyStickman - Cerebus Keeper

by **Caged_Faraday** Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:58 pm

OK, Stick, then I'll ask you to defend one more point, on this already decided debate:

If you're official position was only that the Cerberus was a sentient being of some sort, not that it was under anyone's control... what do you surmise Ben did in the basement of his house? Did he simply unlock Smokey's cage?

Other than that, you are the clear victor on this challenge, and I thank you for accepting the debate.

I'm glad you enjoy the avatar.

by chirpey1987 Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:12 pm

Well Done stickman

by TheHolyStickman Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:16 pm

Caged_Faraday wrote:
If you're official position was only that the Cerberus was a sentient being of some sort, not that it was under anyone's control... what do you surmise Ben did in the basement of his house? Did he simply unlock Smokey's cage?

I would think something like that happened. Maybe he could communicate with it. Maybe he got it to come over there by releasing some sort of energy that made it come. But, anyway I think that Cerberus was in control once he got there. We don't know the extent of Bens control over The Smoke Monster, but I expect them to be minimal. But Jacobs/Islands control over the monster is a completely different issue...

by TheHolyStickman Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:16 pm

Thank you Chirpy! Very Happy

by **Caged_Faraday** Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:03 pm

TheHolyStickman wrote:I would think something like that happened. Maybe he could communicate with it. Maybe he got it to come over there by releasing some sort of energy that made it come. But, anyway I think that Cerberus was in control once he got there. We don't know the extent of Bens control over The Smoke Monster, but I expect them to be minimal. But Jacobs/Islands control over the monster is a completely different issue...

Gotcha.

by TheHolyStickman Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:21 pm

Caged_Faraday wrote:
Gotcha.

What... is that it... No counter argument, no defense, no argument at all. Sad

Where the passion, the excitement. What's happened CagedF, you've changed. lol!

by **Caged_Faraday** Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:45 pm

The debate is over. I just wanted clarification on that one thought regarding your position.

It's debate, not argument. Once it's over, I have no need to carry it on.

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The Cerberus - Autonomous or Controlled

After having read the arguments posted, what do you consider the nature of the Cerberus?