The Grandad thing

If you could travel back in time and meet your Grandad as a young
childless man, would you be able to kill him to prevent your own birth?
No - because then you would not have been born, you would not have
travelled back in time, and you would not have been able to kill your
Grandad. The paradox would be huge. Thus something, the universe, would
prevent you from killing him.....like jamming a gun.

The thin string of thread in my mind, between this and why Micheal (and
others?) cant be killed off the island, is hard to see. It eludes me,
but i'm sure there is a connection.

Does it mean Micheal is in a different timeline to where he belongs? Is this why he cant be killed?

I've tried wrapping my brain around this before, so I'm really glad you brought it up. I definitely think it has to do with a weird timeline thing. Like, and maybe that's why Locke can walk, Rose doesn't have cancer, etc. I think it's because the Island has brought them far enough back in time to where they didn't have those problems.

Hmmm...but Claire was still pregnant when she got on the island...maybe it doesn't affect things like that? haha not sure. But I do think it's a weird time thing for why Michael couldn't kill himself or get shot. Not necessarily because "The island still needs him".

Hard to think about all these things and keep it all straight! haha

I think that instead of the universe stopping you it would kill you. In effect stopping the paradox creater and therefore the paradox.

But if the universe had the power to stop things working then it would just stop the time machine from working, thus cancelling out any chance of paradox.

You could always posit the idea of multiple universes to get around the grandfather paradox problem.

Meaning whatever changes you make in history only create an alternate universe, and thus the universe you came from and belong to does not get effected.

Interesting AC, I'll have to test that on my time machine.

I tested it already on mine.

You'll find out the results two weeks from now.

I cant wait that long! Hold on... see you in Two weeks (Five minutes)

The main school of thought on this has indeed been Hugh Everett's many worlds theory i.e. the multiverse, and has been so far the only way to resolve the paradox, but critics and sceptics keep saying "Where are these parallel realities then?"

but now, between the Large Hadron Collider and it's menagerie of tantalising potential findings and the current intense study of the quantum phenomenon of Decoherence, hopefully we should be able to start pointing.

In terms of the paradox, killing granpappy will only decohere that particular version of reality, leaving plenty more un-decohered granpappies to give nanny some nookie.

Glad you brought this up Sunny P.
I was thinking about this just yesterday when I recalled a scene from "The Shape of Things To Come".

Ben enters Widmore's bedroom in the middle of the night and Widmore asks him, "Are you here to kill me Benjamin?" Ben replies, "We both know I can't do that."

Well the logical question to ask here is why? Why can't Ben simply eliminate his adversary? I have a hunch that the reason he can't is because Widmore is....are you sitting down?...Ben's true biological father. I have no direct evidence to support this claim, but it feels right to me.

Molly,

then that would give Penny a brother called Benny.

Benny and Penny. Neat!

Maybe Leonard is also Ben's Brother!

Penny, Benny and Lenny.

One great set of siblings.

Stitch

StitchExp626 wrote:Molly,

then that would give Penny a brother called Benny.

Benny and Penny. Neat!

Maybe Leonard is also Ben's Brother!

Penny, Benny and Lenny.

One great set of siblings.

Stitch

You've gone and left me in....

STITCHes.

MollyCocktail wrote:

Well the logical question to ask here is why? Why can't Ben simply eliminate his adversary? I have a hunch that the reason he can't is because Widmore is....are you sitting down?...Ben's true biological father. I have no direct evidence to support this claim, but it feels right to me.

Well Molly, if Ben could kill the man who had acted as his father for 20 years, and yes he did treat him like crap but he did give him a home at least, then why couldn't he kill an evil money driven man who stands for everything he's against. And it's not like Ben had been looking for a father all along, he had one and then killed him. I personally don't think Ben would hesitate to kill his biological father, just like he didnt hesitate to kill a man who he had known for twenty years and who is probably his real father.

MollyCocktail wrote:Why can't Ben simply eliminate his adversary? I have a hunch that the reason he can't is because Widmore is....are you sitting down?...Ben's true biological father. I have no direct evidence to support this claim, but it feels right to me.

My dear Molly, given you were right --and I'm not saying that much-- that would only by a problem in case Ben killed Widmore in the past, before Ben was conceived. That would be the paradox. And as that doesn't seem to be the case --I mean, Ben doesn't seem to have jumped to the past at the time he's telling Widmore "we both know I can't do that"-- I must conclude you're wrong. Creatively wrong.

Occam wrote:Creatively wrong.

I like it!

Occam wrote:

MollyCocktail wrote:Why can't Ben simply eliminate his adversary? I have a hunch that the reason he can't is because Widmore is....are you sitting down?...Ben's true biological father. I have no direct evidence to support this claim, but it feels right to me.

My dear Molly, given you were right --and I'm not saying that much-- that would only by a problem in case Ben killed Widmore in the past, before Ben was conceived. That would be the paradox. And as that doesn't seem to be the case --I mean, Ben doesn't seem to have jumped to the past at the time he's telling Widmore "we both know I can't do that"-- I must conclude you're wrong. Creatively wrong.

But then it could be a different paradox. What is it that Widmore has yet to have done, that Ben can't see undone?

God, the English language is terrible in the Present-Future-Subjunctive Tense.

Occam wrote:

MollyCocktail wrote:Why can't Ben simply eliminate his adversary? I have a hunch that the reason he can't is because Widmore is....are you sitting down?...Ben's true biological father. I have no direct evidence to support this claim, but it feels right to me.

My dear Molly, given you were right --and I'm not saying that much-- that would only by a problem in case Ben killed Widmore in the past, before Ben was conceived. That would be the paradox. And as that doesn't seem to be the case --I mean, Ben doesn't seem to have jumped to the past at the time he's telling Widmore "we both know I can't do that"-- I must conclude you're wrong. Creatively wrong.

Whenever a response begins with "My dear Molly...", I know to run and hide.

::hangs head in disappointment::

No strike that....just because my name doesn't begin with an A and end with a C doesn't mean my theories are ridiculous.

You may disagree with me, but look where the show has taken us! It started with a simple plane crash and Season 4 ended with a frozen donkey wheel! Did any of us honestly think the plot would get so nuts? I think not.

Right or wrong, I am sticking to my guns.
Roger may have raised Ben, but that doesn't mean he helped create Ben.

MollyCocktail wrote:Whenever a response begins with "My dear Molly...", I know to run and hide.

Well, I'm sorry if that sounded patronizing. No, lemme rephrase that. I'm sorry I sounded patronizing. My apologies.

MollyCocktail wrote:::hangs head in disappointment::

You shouldn't. Really. That kind of thinking outside the box is what makes the brightest theories.

MollyCocktail wrote:No strike that....just because my name doesn't begin with an A and end with a C doesn't mean my theories are ridiculous.

Hey, I didn't say it was ridiculous. I said creatively wrong. Not the same thing, in my neighborhood.

MollyCocktail wrote:You may disagree with me, but look where the show has taken us! It started with a simple plane crash and Season 4 ended with a frozen donkey wheel! Did any of us honestly think the plot would get so nuts? I think not.

You're right on the spot, on that. I clearly remember my wife telling me to drop the show after S1E03, 'cause it was going to be a rewrite of Robinson Crusoe & his pals, or Lord of the Flies but with grownups. Then Locke started doing Lockeisms... and here we are.

MollyCocktail wrote:Right or wrong, I am sticking to my guns.
Roger may have raised Ben, but that doesn't mean he helped create Ben.

I'm not sure I understood that. Do you mean physically create, as in being his biological father? Do you mean shape Ben into the man we all know?

MollyCocktail wrote:No strike that....just because my name doesn't begin with an A and end with a C doesn't mean my theories are ridiculous.

You may disagree with me, but look where the show has taken us! It started with a simple plane crash and Season 4 ended with a frozen donkey wheel! Did any of us honestly think the plot would get so nuts? I think not.

Right or wrong, I am sticking to my guns.
Roger may have raised Ben, but that doesn't mean he helped create Ben.

Actually... how do we know that the Widmore he spoke to, possibly being his father, wasn't the Widmore that had not yet "help create" Ben. There is so much time-space jumping, that it is conceivable that Ben visited Widmore, in 2006, who would later in 2007 or -08, go back in time to 1968, and impregnate Ben's mom. Or why not 1944, and impregnate Ben's grandmother.

The rules have time have been pitched out the window. Anything can will have happened already 5 years from now. We can't assume anything is as it is just because of a date on a calendar anymore, short of the actions we have actually witnessed. Anything else could still have already happened some time before or after now.

Caged_Faraday wrote:But then it could be a different paradox. What is it that Widmore has yet to have done, that Ben can't see undone?

See, that's quite another kind of bird. Me likes that... Of course, that would mean Widmore knows what he's going to do, and also knows Ben will want him to do it, and also knows that's the reason why Ben can't kill him...

And, if all that was true... would Widmore still want to do whatever Ben wants him to do so badly as not to be able to kill him in order not to avoid it to be done? And, what is more intriguing... was my previous sentence English at all?

Caged_Faraday wrote:God, the English language is terrible in the Present-Future-Subjunctive Tense.

Yeah... and you speak English as your mother tongue, right? Go tell me about it. I don't even speak my own mother tongue properly...

Occam wrote:Yeah... and you speak English as your mother tongue, right? Go tell me about it. I don't even speak my own mother tongue properly...

But then does you mother tongue have a tense for 4-dimentional reality?
Honestly, I never realized you didn't speak English as a first language.

Caged_Faraday wrote:Actually... how do we know that the Widmore he spoke to, possibly being his father, wasn't the Widmore that had not yet "help create" Ben. There is so much time-space jumping, that it is conceivable that Ben visited Widmore, in 2006, who would later in 2007 or -08, go back in time to 1968, and impregnate Ben's mom. Or why not 1944, and impregnate Ben's grandmother.

The rules have time have been pitched out the window. Anything can will have happened already 5 years from now. We can't assume anything is as it is just because of a date on a calendar anymore, short of the actions we have actually witnessed. Anything else could still have already happened some time before or after now.

Hey!!! Stop that!!! There's a limit for everything!!

As far as we know, there's only "time travelling" from the Island. "Mind travelling", that's quite another story. But please point to me any occurrence of "time travelling" originated off-Island. As far as I remember, there's only one occurrence of "time travelling", and that's Ben "jumping" to 2005 after turning the frozen donkey wheel.

So we can't conclude Widmore is able to buy "time travelling tickets", right? For all we know, that could be the reason why the guy is so eager to laid his hands on the Island...

Caged_Faraday wrote:But then does you mother tongue have a tense for 4-dimentional reality?

Yes, as does yours. Or, at least, for a 3 1/2 dimensional reality, as the saying goes.

Caged_Faraday wrote:Honestly, I never realized you didn't speak English as a first language.

Why, thanks. But no, I don't. I speak Spanish as my first language, and American English as my second. More or less. And no British would acknowledge American English as a language, anyway

No strike that....just because my name doesn't begin with an A and end with a C doesn't mean my theories are ridiculous.

Is that directed at me? How come I got dragged into this?

I reserve the right to only get down and dirty in squabbles of my own creation!

And technically my name begins with an A and ends with a T, but since I am generally AC I'll leave it alone.

Anyway, since my opinion hasn't been asked for, I say Widmore isn't Ben's father. Why? Just because.

Occam wrote:Why, thanks. But no, I don't. I speak Spanish as my first language, and American English as my second. More or less. And no British would acknowledge American English as a language, anyway

Ah, well Spanish does have reasonable Future Imperfect and Subjunctive tenses... neither of which I remember how to use, as I haven't had oppotunity to use Spanish in 13 or so years.

Occam wrote:

You're right on the spot, on that. I clearly remember my wife telling me to drop the show after S1E03, 'cause it was going to be a rewrite of Robinson Crusoe & his pals, or Lord of the Flies but with grownups. Then Locke started doing Lockeisms... and here we are.

You know Occam, sometimes I think its pointless to write theories because the writers can just add a new rule or put in a new character and change the direction completely.