debate-hope-v-SunburnedPenguin - Winner Announced

Hope's Argument:
HERO -
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.



COWARD -
1. a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.
–adjective 2. lacking courage; very fearful or timid.



THE HERO AS A CHARACTER -
In each story that represents a Hero's Journey, the hero must experience steps that represent the struggle for inside.


The Hero's Journey begins with either an inner longing to go on a quest, or an exterior call that enlists the aid of the hero. Heroes may, at first, refuse the call, or may at once respond to the call. There is usually some resistance to the call because it means leaving a comfortable existence to walk into unknown physical and psychological danger.


In some cases, a guide or supernatural aid will direct the first part of the Hero's Journey. Such is the case in various Biblical passages where God, for example, instructs Noah to build an ark, or where angels reveal the path Christ must follow. The next step is a crossing of the threshold, the moment when the hero must leave the known world and venture into parts unknown.


In the Hero's Journey, one may encounter a threshold guardian, who tries to discourage the hero from the crossing. In Greek myths, travels to the underworld mean getting past Cerberus, the three-headed dog, and physically crossing the river Styx. The threshold crossing is symbolically interpreted as entering the unconscious psyche.


Once into the unconscious, the hero frequently has moments of doubt and despair, called “The Belly of the Whale.” This despair is short lived and is followed by various trials that will test the hero and reveal to him his true nature.


The final conflict prior to returning to the normal world is confrontation with the father figure. In some cases this means killing the father, while in others it means in some way vanquishing the father’s power over oneself. In The Return of the Jedi for example, Luke offers his father Darth Vader a chance to redeem himself, instead of taking up his light saber to slay him. Luke saves Vader from his own evil nature, and though Vader dies, Luke has now dealt with that which exhibited ultimate control over him.


I wrote this for college in a Greek Mythology class.



We all know that the first thing Jack did when he awoke was run to figure out what was happening. When he found out, he didn't have to immediately run to peoples aide, he just did it. He helped organize and headed the trip to the cock pit to receive the transceiver to hopefully make a call to save everyone. Since then his main mission was to save everyone. He was the unofficially appointed leader of everyone because people looked up to him, trusted him, wanted him and needed him to lead them. Because of Jack, the survivors stayed together and worked together to keep order and unity, which is important in a situation like that. Then Sawyer started a ruckus, stealing inhalers and other medication and Jack stepped up and took charge. And though Sawyer didn't stop or really change, Jack established his role as protector and authority figure. Jack then leads many expeditions through the jungle despite not knowing what was out there. Even after captured by the others, he still has his fellow losties on his mind. He helps Ben so that he can leave and hopefully bring rescue back to the island. It didn't go his way so he improvised. He saved Sawyer and Kate because at the time, it was all he could do. Then he finished helping Jack to save Juliet and himself.
Then he returns to the beach camp, and though he has brought the untrustworthy Juliet with him, people still are excited to see Jack. When Juliet tells Jack about Ben's plans, Jack plans a counter attack to save Sun and possibly Kate. Then he leads them to the radio tower and makes the call. The one that hopefully will save them all.


The call didn't save them though. Actually, it saved 6 of them. After watching the island disappear and not knowing the fate of the others that he worked so hard to save, he wants to go back. He wants to make right on his promise to save all of them. However his daddy issues keep coming up. He started drinking (a mirror of his father), and taking muscle relaxers. Now he is ready to make right. Now he is ready to go back and be the hero he promised to be. His time off of the island was his trial. Can he do this? Can he redeem himself? Can he deal with his daddy issues? Will he return stronger, a smarter man and a hero?


Yes!! He started the hero, he will end the hero. What we have seen in his season 4 flash forwards is a regression from the hero that we know from the island. I know, I should be arguing that even now he is a hero, and I am really. I am saying that what he is experiencing is a natural journey. He must go through this time of uncertainties, doubt and despair. Only then can he over come his father (which is a big problem for Jack, a problem since childhood) and return to the island and save everyone.


So in conclusion, Jack is a hero. Has been since the first episode. Still is now and will be in the future. Right now he is experiencing his trials, that doesn't mean that he is a coward by any means. His only real issue is his father and he will deal with it. Everyone looked up to him, even Sawyer after a time. Jack stepped up when no one else seemed to want to. Every one else was justly terrified, they needed Jack. And even if Jack needed them to need him, can you really say that Jack did that for himself? Maybe he was a born hero and was looking for his time to fill that birthright. His need to fix things could arise from him needing to fulfill a destiny.


Heroes are obviously not perfect. They are still humans and they are no different from everyone who commits mistakes and makes shortcomings. The bravest thing they can do is admit them and set them right.

SunburnedPenguins
Why Jack is a Coward, not a Hero

I am not going to make comparisons between Jack and other characters, simply because I want to tackle this purely on Jacks own history, actions, and reactions.

The best place to start is at the beginning.

In the very first season of Lost, we are introduced to Jack as an unwilling leader and hero. He didn't want to be a hero, or their leader, he didn't think he could be, but others looked to him as a leader and he was forced to comply. Why didn't he want to take this role? Fear. Fear of what would happen to him if he failed.

His father had drummed it into him from an early age, that he just doesn't have what it takes to deal with failure. He then grew up and approached life with an insatiable desire to fix things, to make things right. Everything we see Jack do for the other survivors is not because he is a hero, it is because he has to fix things and avoid the failure he is so afraid of. I will expand on this later.

When Kate is sewing up his wound in the pilot episode, he gives her a lovely story about how he once dealt with his fear. We all know the story so theres no need for me to repeat it, but looking back on it I cant help feeling that in that situation, with a woman on his operating table dying from a mistake he made, how did he justify having the time to stop and count to 5? He admits he was very scared, he was scared of failing, but he then let the fear take over for just 5 seconds and he fixed her. In my opinion, that fear shouldn't have been let in to begin with. He pats himself on the back for dealing with it but it was his mistake and he should have had the courage and quick thinking to just get on with the job.

When we learn more of Jacks back story in “Stranger in a Strange Land”, we see him forcing his lover to “mark” him. “He walks among us, but is not one of us”. She told him he was a “leader and a great man, but this makes him lonely, frightened, and angry” This is further confirmation that his life is dominated by fear of failure.

Every presumably heroic act we see Jack perform, both on and off the island, is not born of heroism, but of selfish cowardice. His motivation is not the wellbeing of his friends and companions, or even the girl he loves, but simply to not fail. He said he would get them off the island and he intends to keep that promise only because he is so scared of what failure would feel like....because he doesn't have what it takes.

The seal on his heroic coffin, for me, was the finale of season four. Specifically the scenes in the helicopter.

When Sawyer jumps off the helicopter to save everyone else, that is a truly heroic act. Jack just looks on, probably more distressed that Sawyer just kissed his girl than anything else.



Then again, when we have this conversation;

Where's the freighter?
LAPIDUS: I don't know. I stayed on course. They must have it on the move again.
How much fuel?
LAPIDUS: Four, five minutes worth, unless somebody else wants to jump.
Kate gives Jack a questioning and worried look....
JACK: As soon as we get to the boat, we'll go back for him.

Yeah right. I think the look Kate gives him here sums up how she feels about that. She doesn't believe him. He has exposed himself as a weak coward.



And then they land on the freighter to Desmonds warning of a bomb, and Kate makes a heroic decision to go and get Jin because, quite understandably, Sun doesn't want to leave him. But Jack wont have any of it.

JACK: Kate! Come on!
KATE: Jin's still inside! Jin's still inside. We can't leave him behind.
JACK: Come on. Listen, I'm not leaving without you. We gotta get out of here now. Let's go!
KATE; Give me a minute! No! Wait!
KATE: Where's Jin?

They get in the helicopter and take off;

SUN: It's Jin!
JACK: No!
SUN: Jin! Jin! Jin! We have to go back! Turn around!
JACK: We can't do it!
SUN: We have to! We need to go back!

And we know what happens next. Jack then refuses to allow Lapidus to go back and look for Jin.

He is more concerned with keeping his promise to fix things and get them off the island than he is with allowing situations to dictate a new course of action. He is unshakeable not because he is a hero, but because he simply cannot allow himself to fail.

I think we also have to remember this guy



This is what happens to a man who is scared of failure, when he fails. Out of all the 06 he is the only one to descend into drug addiction. Even Hurley, who was slightly insane before, wanted to go back to Santa Rosa to get treatment because he is not afraid of admitting when he has a problem.

Jack screwed up his relationship with Aaron and Kate because he was scared. Another failure.

So....is this guy really a hero?

vincentthedog wrote:For me a hero is someone who presses on even though they are afraid. Fear does not make you a coward not doing something because of fear makes you a coward, doing it inspite of fear makes one a hero. Sorry to disagree with are lovely administator.

Irocz28 wrote:Let me first start by saying that I think this debate would have been more fair if the topic had just been "Is Jack a Hero?" Then you can debate that he is a hero or that he isn't a hero. Coward is such a strong word. I'm not sure if there is anyone on Lost that fits that word entirely.

Hope wrote:

THS, his actions when Ben was willing to shoot the three people, in my eyes was Jack taking Bens power away. If Ben kept all that power over Jack then hopes of rescue were diminished.

Hope wrote:heres my problem with that....
Jack had to do that. If he didn't, then the others would be in control and Jack woudn't be able to rescue the majority of the people. All hope would be lost, and besides Jin, Sayid and Bernard were willing to die it seemed for that cause...So I am not seeing where this is a problem I guess.

Hope wrote:I agree with you KSJ. And WTF, even if Sawyer didn't steal the inhalers, he didn't give Shannon the inhaler when she clearly needed it. I am not picking on Sawyer, I know you are a die hard fan, but Sawyer was using this for personal gain