POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

by **SunburnedPenguin** Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:02 pm

Same rules apply as last time, the challenge is open for questions for 48 hours, when a poll will be added to decide the winner.

Good luck to you both, may the best side win!!!

The arguments:

Lojozz wrote:

Lets start with a definition of Good Guy: morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.

For Ben to be a Good Guy he must surely have some of those characteristics but he
lies and manipulates all the time which pretty much counts out all of
the above. I will however give evidence of much more than lying and
manipulating to prove Ben can not possibly be a good guy.

So
lets look at some examples of Ben not being the good guy. The thing
that sticks out for me more than anything else is him sending Goodwin
to his death because he was jealous of his relationship with Juliet.
Add to that the heartless way he showed her the body and ranted that
she was his and it becomes really difficult to reconcile Ben as a good
guy.

JULIET: Why are you showing me this? Why did you bring me out here?

BEN: What, you mean instead of his wife?

JULIET:
You knew this would happen. You sent him out here because you knew this
would happen. (Cries) You wanted this! You wanted him to die! Why?

BEN:
"Why"? You're asking me why? After everything I did to get you here,
after everything I've done to keep you here, how can you possibly not
understand... that you're mine?

This is an admission that he did send Goodwin knowing he would die and he did it to show Juliet that he owns her.

Not
enough? Ok, how about out and out murder, in fact not just murder
patricide. Ben killed his father, who granted was an unpleasant man but
did he really deserve to be gassed to death by his own son. This was
done in an incredibly cold and calculating way, with not even a hint of
guilt for his actions. Now even if we consider that this was a test he
needed to fulfill to become the leader of the others, presumably like
Locke, at that point he did not know the secrets of the island or
Jacob. We have to conclude that he killed his father in a quest for
power. Good Guy behavior? I think not.

One
murder not enough well Ben was complicit in the killing of all of the
Dharma Initiative on the island. Again without any emotion or feeling.
The only nicety we saw was him closing Goodspeed’s eyes.

He is also happy to kidnap children consider the following conversation:

BEN: I wanna thank you for how wonderful you've been with Zack and Emma.

JULIET:
They're really sweet kids. (Chuckles) Ben, they've been asking me about
their mother in Los Angeles. I'm not really sure what to say.

BEN: They'll stop asking in time.

JULIET: They're children. Do they really belong here?

BEN: They're on the list, Juliet.

(Ben hands Juliet her serving.)

BEN: Who are we to question who's on the list and who's not?

Seems
to me that Ben is suggesting that he’s just following orders which in
essence is the ’Nuremberg Defense’, and that to me is not and has never
been acceptable, especially if you want to claim you are a good guy.

So
what else has Ben done, he shot Locke and left him for dead in a fit of
jealous rage because Locke had heard Jacob. He also gambled with his
daughters life to save his own. Alex was killed because Ben failed to
act like the ‘good guy’ and surrender. A good guy would have been
prepared to give up his life to save his daughter. Whilst we are on the
subject, do good guys go after revenge? Ben has told Widmore that he is
going to kill Penny to make him understand how he feels. So he is going
to kill an innocent, somebody who has not wronged him in the slightest
just so he can make a man understand how he feels. Yeah that’s real
good guy behavior.

So
lets have a quick recap of Benjamin Linus’ character. A man who lies
constantly, who manipulates at every opportunity to achieve his own
goals. A man who happily murdered his own father and the rest of the
island inhabitants without a flicker of emotion or guilt. A man who
kidnaps children because they appear on a list. A jealous guy who we’ve
seen send one man to his death, shot and left another for dead because
of this jealous streak. A man who operates on petty revenge, but
because he cant take revenge on the person responsible is happy to kill
an innocent to achieve his revenge. On the other side he closes a dead
mans eyes in what looked like a mark of respect, well if he had
respected him perhaps it would have been better to warn him what was
going to happen.

Ben
may believe he is a good guy and he may believe he is acting for the
greater good but I would suggest that Ben is in fact a sociopath with a
strong bent towards self delusion. Here are a few sociopathic indicators

· Manipulative and Conning

· Grandiose Sense of Self

· Pathological Lying

· Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

Sound like anyone we know?

Just
because somebody thinks they are the good guy and believe they are
doing the right thing, it does not make it true. Even if we believe
that in some cases evil deeds can be necessary and excused for the
cause of the greater good, can we really say that a man who constantly
carries out bad deeds for whatever excuse, is a good guy.

I
can not think of any instance where Ben has actually acted as the good
guy. The only thing that comes close was him keeping his word to let
Michael leave, but as we all know this was just so he could later play
on Michael’s guilt to get him to work for him.

Remember, Ben is not one of the Good Guys Ben is a sociopath.

Hope wrote:WHY BEN IS THE GOOD GUY!!

First I want
to start off by saying that I am not going near the Juliet-Goodwin
stuff unless it is otherwise brought up. I think that when we are
talking about Ben being one of the “good guys”, we are talking in
relation to the island and our Losties.

Ben's first
questionable act is the purging of the Dharma Initiative. First I must
say that we didn't actually see him purge the Dharma Initiative, we
only saw him gas his father at the same exact time that the DI is
purged. Also, the DI was purged with their own weapon, which, in my
opinion, puts the DI's intentions into question. I don't want to add
very many of my own theories or speculations in this debate. That being
said; I think that the Hostiles initiated that attack on the DI with
Ben's help. I don't believe that the 'purge' can be used as an example
of Ben's integrity because we don't know which side the DI was on.

So,
I think everything else can be explained as Ben helping the greater
good. Being a leader is tough. People can mistake a Leader as a bad guy
because they don't understand why he choose to make the decision that
he made. And in Ben's case, there seems to be some kind of future
knowledge about what is about to happen, so it would seem as though he
understands the ramifications of the decisions that he is making.

The
islands leader is a very important person. One just can't be elected
into the job. No, someone visits you at an early age and starts the
grooming process. So Ben would need to stay alive until a new leader is
ready for the job. So yes, Locke was going to be the new leader but he
wasn't ready yet. That is why Ben needed his surgery. That is why he
needed to kidnap Jack, Kate, and Sawyer. He could have gone about it a
different way, but he probably would have died in the process. So why
his actions are questionable, his intentions are good. Survive and
protect.

I know that Ben having his people steal
babies and children out of the forest and taking them back to New
Otherton seems cruel. But here his intentions are good. None of the
children he had taken from the beach had parents, so they were
orphaned. In New Otherton, they can be fed and bathed and clothed and
loved. How is that bad? And Alex, if he truly believed that Rosseau was
crazy, then he was protecting her from demise in the forest. He raised
her as his own and loved her. Truly and evil man.

His
actions regarding Karl are also questionable. Yes Ben had Karl placed
in a room for brainwashing. Yes Ben locked Karl in a cage. But why? He
loves his daughter. He truly didn't want her to become pregnant and
die. Alex was all he had. Alex was rebelling when she released Claire
and helped Kate and Sawyer. She just wanted to be with Karl, but daddy
was being unreasonable. When in reality, he was just trying to do good
by his daughter. So, here also his intentions are good.

I
mentioned Claire. Yes she was kidnapped. But put in a room with nice
baby furniture and a doctor facility near by. I don't think they had
intentions of keeping Aaron for themselves, I think they would have let
Claire live there and raise him. She was just freaked out, justifiably
so.

And closer to the end, when he shot Charlotte, I
think it was pretty obvious that he knew she was wearing a bullet proof
vest. I think that he knew he had to do something to save himself, and
exposing her as a potential bad guy bought him his life. So again,
actions are questionable but his intentions are good. If he had died
then, he wouldn't have been around to ultimately sacrifice himself so
save the island.

I really felt for Ben when he finally met
Keamy. He honestly thought that he could defuse the situation. He
thought that yes, he would hurt Alex's feelings, but atleast she would
live. He went into revenge mode the second she was murdered. And given
the situation that Ben is in, I can't say that I wouldn't do the same
thing.

Yes he killed Keamy, and I say, good job
Ben Linus. I don't know what I would do if I watched my own daughter
get shot before my eyes. And then to have the same bastard come after
me, I think that I would probably do the same thing. KILL HIM!!!! To
hell with the freighter people, they are bad guys anyways. Come to
steal the island and use it for bad. Atleast we know that they were
going to capture Ben and then kill every one on the island. That is
bad.

Ultimately, Ben has a heart. He cares about
his home, his people, and will do anything to protect those things. In
the end, we see him protecting the Losties that are left. He even
sacrifices it all to move the island. He can never go back. So what
does he do? Aligns himself with Sayid to protect the O6 and the island.
Who cares if it seems as though he is only trying to get the O6 to go
together so he can also return. It is the only home that he knows. It
makes sense that he would want to go back. And besides if the island is
in peril because Kate, Jack, Sayid, Hurley, Sun and Aaron left, then it
only makes sense that Ben would try to fix that. Besides, John appears
to be dead, so the island needs its old leader back right??

by **Lojozz** Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:21 pm

Not going near Juliet and Goodwin is very wise if you are trying suggest that Ben is a good guy, he sent one of his own people to his death because he was jealous. Don't you state that he loves and protects his people?

Purging the DI - BEN: This is where I came from, John. These are my people. The DHARMA Initiative. They came here seeking harmony, but they couldn't even coexist with the Island's original inhabitants. And when it became clear that one side had to go, one side had to be purged, I did what I had to do. I was one of the people that was smart enough to make sure that I didn't end up in that ditch. Which makes me considerably smarter than you, John.

You say the children where orphans but that is also incorrect:

EMMA: Where's my mom?

ANA: I don't know.

EMMA: She's meeting us in Los Angeles.

YELLING MAN: Help! Help! Anybody see my wife? Pam!

ANA: We're not there yet. I promise, we're going to get you home soon, okay

So their parents weren't even on the flight.

"And closer to the end, when he shot Charlotte, I
think it was pretty obvious that he knew she was wearing a bullet proof
vest". How was this obvious? I don't think it was obvious, does that mean it was obvious to Richard that Keamy was wearing a vest?

"Yes he killed Keamy, and I say, good job
Ben Linus" You say good job to a man who kills for revenge knowing this is going to kill multiple innocents. He kills Keamy for revenge but then still feels the need to find Widmore and tell him he's going to kill his daughter.

"So what does he do? Aligns himself with Sayid to protect the O6 and the island." - He manipulates Sayid (very probably killing his wife) to do his dirty work.

by tracker Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:49 pm

Outstanding job on both sides!

My first question would go to Hope. You said "He could have gone about it a
different way, but he probably would have died in the process. So why
his actions are questionable, his intentions are good. Survive and
protect."

Why are his actions almost always questionable? He makes decisions that risk the welfare of innocent people all the time. It would apppear that if he would just ask for assistance, he would have gotten it.

His actions remind me of someone who would drive over and kill several people at an accident scene in order to render aid to another.

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:11 pm

Off to a hot start. I think we all bring a lot of preconceptions into this argument. Some of us feel that Ben is Just evil, some feel he is good and some feel that he is something in between. But I think that most of us want him to be good.

But in putting aside our predjudices I have these questions.

Lojozz, In World War two, though it must be judged as a "good war" that needed to be fought, there were atrocities on both sides. Even Allied powers comitted acts that could be judged as excessively brutal and even evil if looked at out of context. That said, can we really judge Ben's actions without knowing or seeing the "big picture" What if we find out that Ben's actions determined the very fate of the entire world and that he took the actions resulting in so many deaths so that humanity could be saved? Would this make you believe that Ben was a good guy who took horrible actions or would he still be a bad guy. I know this involves a lot of leaps but without knowing the final goal, can we judge him as a "bad guy?"

Hope, should we infer from your argument that Ben could be good because he raised and loved Alex? If so, you must remember that people like Al Capone loved and took care of his children and Hitler loved Eva Braun...the capacity to love another does not mean that you are a good person. Even if he was working for the greater good or some plan that we don't know about, doesn't his utter lack of remorse for his actions and his cold and callus disregard for human life automatically make him a "bad guy?"

At one point in "Meet Kevin Johnson" Ben tells Michael that he can't blow up the freighter yet because he doesn't want the innocents on the ship to be hurt. But just a few episodes later after he stabs Keamy and Locke points out that Ben's actions have "killed everybody on the freighter" Ben reponds with "So?" Don't these two instances make Ben out to be a good liar/manipulator and not a good guy?

by **Lojozz** Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:53 pm

MSHL welcome to the party!

"can we really judge Ben's actions without knowing or seeing the "big
picture" What if we find out that Ben's actions determined the very
fate of the entire world and that he took the actions resulting in so
many deaths so that humanity could be saved? Would this make you
believe that Ben was a good guy who took horrible actions or would he
still be a bad guy. I know this involves a lot of leaps but without
knowing the final goal, can we judge him as a "bad guy?""

This is an age old debate of can evil ever be justified and one which I already alluded to. You're right without the full picture we do not yet know all of Ben's motivations. However, In what conceivable way could sending Goodwin to his death be considered part of a bigger plan to save humanity. We can only go on what we have seen and what facts we have. This was an act motivated by jealousy because another man was with the woman he felt was his.

by TheHolyStickman Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:43 pm

MSHL I couldnt agree with you more in your first statement. On the outside Ben looks like an evil manipulative man. But we'd have to wait to see the big picture to see if his actions were justified. For example.

Blowing up the freiter. Ben knew that when he killed Keamy the boat would blow up. But he knew that Michael was on there and that he wanted to die. He knew also that there were innocent people on the boat, but he also knew that there were life boats on there. He knew Micheal and his personality would never let him leave on a life boat.

My guess is that Ben spent whole nights staying up thinking about this and weighing up the good and the bad. The man is like a human calculator.
Good; Micheal dies, Widmore can not get to the island anymore, Keamy is dead and Alex is avenged.
Bad; Some people would have died, Oceanic six crashed.

So finally, arguing on Hopes side I think that Ben only makes calulated and well thought out decisions. (With the occasional 'send Goodwin to die' emotional blocked thought.) And that allthough he seems bad and has a bad personality, he is a good guy.

by Lateralus Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:07 pm

I'll go one up and call him the Anti-Hero(Byronic Hero) of the show. He is willing to act immorally for the sake of the island and the others.

In fiction, an anti-hero is a protagonist who is lacking the traditional heroic attributes and qualities, and instead possesses character traits that are antithetical to heroism. Typically, the anti-hero acts heroically, in scale and daring, but by methods, manners, and intentions both fair and foul, even underhanded and deceitful.

wikipedia definition

BEN: This is where I came from, John. These are my people. The DHARMA Initiative. They came here seeking harmony, but they couldn't even coexist with the Island's original inhabitants. And when it became clear that one side had to go, one side had to be purged, I did what I had to do. I was one of the people that was smart enough to make sure that I didn't end up in that ditch. Which makes me considerably smarter than you, John.

You could even say that Jack is the Anti-Villian of the show. Jack will do what is morally right for the sake of it being morally right, even if it means people get hurt.

One scene that is a perfect example of this is when Jack has Ben captive and Jack is trying to get a signal to the freighter at the end of Throught the Looking glass.

BEN: Not so long ago, Jack. I made a decision, that took the lives of over forty people in a single day. I'm telling you this because, history is about to repeat itself, right here, right now.

JACK: Let me guess, you've got us surrounded, and if I don't do what you say you're gonna, you're gonna kill all my people.

BEN: No Jack, you are.

[Jack laughs]

JACK: And how am I going to do that, Ben?

BEN: The woman you're travelling with. The one who parachuted onto the Island from that helicopter. She's not who she says she is.

JACK: She's not, huh?

BEN: No she's not.

JACK: Then who is she?

BEN: She's a representative of some people who've been trying to find this Island, Jack. She's one of the bad guys.

JACK: Oh, I almost forgot, you're the, you're the good guys.

BEN: Jack, listen to me. If you phone her boat, every single living person on this Island will be killed. So here's what has to happen. Get that device, the phone she carries with her, and give it me. I will turn around, we'll go back to my people, you will turn around and go back to your people.

JACK: I'm not going anywhere.

[They both stand confrontationally]

BEN: May I have my walkie back?

JACK: What?

BEN: There's something you need to hear. Please.

[Jack gives it him]

BEN: Tom, are you there?

TOM: Yes, I'm here.

BEN: [To Jack] Your plan killed seven of my people, but the one's that you failed to kill are now holding your friends. Jin, Sayid, Bernard. At gunpoint.

SAYID: Jack don't give him anything!!!

[Sounds of a struggle can be heard over the walkie]

BERNARD: Leave him alone!!

RYAN: I said shut up!!

[A thud signals Ryan hitting someone]

JACK: And what's to stop me from snapping your neck?

BEN: [Quickly] Tom, unless you hear my voice in one minute, shoot all three of them.

TOM: Got it.

[Ben looks at his watch]

RYAN: I said don't move!!

BEN: Bring me the phone, Jack.

SAYID: Don't negotiate with him...

JIN: No!

BEN: Forty seconds.

JACK: No. I'm getting them all off the Island. All of them!!

BEN: Let me ask you something, Jack. Why do you wanna leave the Island? What is it that you so desperately want to get back to? You have no-one. Your father's dead, your wife left you, moved on with another man. Can you just not wait to get back to the hospital? Get back to fixing things? It's twenty seconds now. Just get me the phone, Jack.

JACK: No.

BEN: Ten seconds. Bring me the phone.

JACK: No.

BEN: I'm not bluffing!

JACK: I WON'T DO IT!!!

BEN: Five. Four. Three...

JACK: No.

[Pause]

[Three shots sound over the mike]

BEN: I'm so sorry, Jack.

[Jack attacks Ben, hiding him numerous times and causing his own knuckles to bleed. He grabs the walkie]

JACK: Tom. Are you there?

TOM: Yeah, Jack, I hear you.

JACK: I'm going to lead my people up to the radio tower. And I'm gonna make a call. And I'm gonna get em all rescued, every one of them. And then I'm gonna come find you, and I'm gonna kill ya.

Ben was ready to kill them to keep Jack from contacting the boat, Jack was willing to let them die so everyone else could be saved.

by AngeloComet Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:29 pm

Ben: [To Roger Linus] "For as long as I can remember, I've had to put up with you. And doing that required a tremendous amount of patience."

If patience is a virtue, Ben is one of the most virtuous people I can imagine.

So far this argument appears to have avoided the idea of what constitutes 'good'. If I were debating, it's a point I wouldn't overlook. . .

by TheHolyStickman Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:32 pm

I love the descirption of Jack as the anti villain. Good points Lateralus.

by **Lojozz** Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:47 pm

AC is patience a virtue when you are only being patient to kill somebody at the right time? I'm not sure this debate does avoid what constitutes good. I used briefly it in my opening line.

Lateralus good use of conversation but it does also highlight another lie by Ben, when you put it up to this conversation with Locke:

BEN: It's very important that you survive what's about to happen here, John. So I need you to stay close to me.
LOCKE: And why would I do that?
BEN: Because the people that are coming won't risk hurting me. You want to live? I'm your best chance.

So Unless Ben and John are both already dead, Ben was lying to Jack when he said every living person on this island will die, he knew he would survive. Nice position to be in!

Stickman:
"Good; Micheal dies, Widmore can not get to the island anymore, Keamy is dead and Alex is avenged.
Bad; Some people would have died, Oceanic six crashed".

Why is it good that Michael dies? Alex is not avenged in Ben's mind because he still goes on to tell Widmore he will kill his daughter.

Some people die? What value do you put on a single life? What value do you put on a father to be, being blown up whilst his wife is watching? What value do you put on a freighter full of innocent people being killed because you lost the plot? A good guy does not respond to this with "So".

by TheHolyStickman Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:55 pm

Lojozz wrote:

Stickman:
"Good; Micheal dies, Widmore can not get to the island anymore, Keamy is dead and Alex is avenged.
Bad; Some people would have died, Oceanic six crashed".

Why is it good that Michael dies? Alex is not avenged in Ben's mind because he still goes on to tell Widmore he will kill his daughter.

Some people die? What value do you put on a single life? What value do you put on a father to be, being blown up whilst his wife is watching? What value do you put on a freighter full of innocent people being killed because you lost the plot? A good guy does not respond to this with "So".

What I was saying is that he weighed the decision up and because he is an anti-hero he thought that the protection of the island was more important than the lives of a few people. We dont yet know the sgnificance of the island and all its powers. It could be catastrophic if it fell into Widmores hands. So its a case of Kill ten to save millions.

And It's good that Micheal died because he wanted to. I think that Ben's threat was an empty one. I dont think he is planning to kill Penny. He is planning to make Widmore worried and paranoid.

by **Lojozz** Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:05 am

Stickman: He killed Keamy for revenge not for the island, but his revenge is not sated with killing the man who killed his daughter and numerous innocents, he still wants more. That is not how a good guy behaves. You can dress it up with anti-hero all you want but good guys don't wash their hands in the blood of innocents.

So you consider it a good thing for a man to die because he wants to? Never mind atoning for what he's done wrong. He wants to die so thats good? Sorry not in my world, do you think Walt will think that is good?

How can you say Ben to Widmore was an empty threat? Where is you're evidence? You think that scene was a bluff?

by **Lojozz** Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:38 am

Here is a website that gives a profile of a sociopath:
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Its fits Ben pretty well, it doesn't fit the profile of a good guy.

by **StitchExp626** Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:40 am

Lojozz and Hope I think you have both done an excellent job in producing evidence to back up your positions. Well done!

However I am not fully convinced either way about whether ben is a good guy. Is anyone on the show, or in real life, every totally good? Does Ben consider himself one of the good guys because the others that he compares himself to are so bad. Is Ben the lesser of two evils?

Or is a good guy someone who acts in accordance with their own value system, and if this is the case, then surely most people on the planet would have to be called good.

Voting for this debate is going to be hard, you both have presented equally good cases. I wish that I had the option of giving you one vote each.

Stitch

by Hope Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:46 am

Ok, I feel bad. I had to go out tonight and I haven't been here to defend my side, but I am now.

First the kids. Yes Ben can get off of the island and yes he could send the kids home. But then the island would be compromised. Isn't protecting the island what Ben is all about? Aren't the kids ok where they are? Are they hurting the children? If there is no rescue and the kids stayed with people they don't know who weren't able to properly care for them, wouldn't that be bad?

Juliet. Alright, though it hard to argue that there in that instant he was a good guy, I would argue that we are not talking about his personal life. We are talking about the island and Bens relation to that island.
As it has been stated above, we don't know the islands full potential, what you can do with it so to speak. We do know that it has healing properties and we do know that there is a smoke monster, so what else is there? Ben could be protecting the whole world, we don't know.

And as far as that threat against Penelope goes, his focus has clearly changed. He is trying to rally everyone who left the island so they can go back.

And killing Keamy was for everyone. If he was allowed to live, then he probably would have carried out his orders to kill everyone on the island. And at the point, it was Ben or Keamy. Ben defended himself because it didn't look like Keamy was going to let up. And when Keamy says there are innocent people on the frieghter, does Ben also think that the frieghter people are innocent? He doesn't know that Sayid and Desmond are on there! He doesn't know that Faraday has been ferrying people the the freighter.

The leader of the island is an important role. At least that what we have been lead to believe, especially this season. Ben asking for help would seem weak.

Somebody once said, "I may not be a nice person, but I am a good human being".

Being good is like beauty. It is a biased, prejudiced, over-rated and a subjective issue.

What constitutes a good person?"
Activity of the soul in accordance with reason (that capacity which is unique to us as persons).

Can you really say that Ben is none of these?

by TheHolyStickman Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:44 am

Hope - You say that Ben didn't know that Daniel was ferrying people to the Freiter. He did. Ben said to Jack. You have to leave now within the hour, I understand that your people are currently being taken to the boat. Or something to that effect. So did all those on the boat deserve to die? They all worked for Widmore, but all the mercenaries had gone. On that boat were crew members and scientists. Couldnt they have knocked Keamy out and tied him up for at least a little while?

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:36 am

We seem to be avoiding the classical queston of "does the end justify the means.

Since we can only guess at the end we have to take a close look at the means

Means: Murder, kidnapping, psychological manipulation, terror, lying...all pretty harsh but not outside the scope of actions of nations, even ones considered good nations such as the US and the UK.

The only Ends we have is "protect the island" The stakes have to be pretty high to justify Ben's actions to date, especially ones motivated by personal interests such as indirectly causing Goodwin's death so that he could have a shot at Juliet.

If the end of protecting the island is that important then wouldn't Ben, if he were a good guy, avoid the loss of life unless absolutly necessary?

How about this...we do not actually know the true motiations of Charles Widmore though we all assume he is an evil man bent on capturing the island because of his actions to date. If we apply the same arguments to Widmore that we have applied to Ben to prove he is actually one of the good guys, do they make sense...could one reasonably come to the conclusion that Charles Widmore is one of the good guys?

by AngeloComet Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:38 am

I wonder if this isn't becoming bogged down in the notion that a good man is someone who only does good things.

That's not a man. That's a saint.

The reason I stated before that we ought to be questioning the integrity of what constitutes 'good' stems from a simple question I asked myself.

What has Ben done that is 'good'?

And I was hard-pushed to come up with a strong answer. Raising Alex? Well, he'd apparently kidnapped her first. Sticking to his word? True, but it tended only be on deals that had been made without him.

So hand's up who thinks Ben's a bad guy? Well. . . my hand stays down. Why? Despite all of the above, why? Surely it's not about the small actions, good or bad, of the man - but in the point we know Ben works on a higher agenda. Lojozz side-stepped the point (he tried to do it quickly, like a magician with a dove up his sleeve) about the greater good, but the greater good is everything.

You didn't notice the parallel between Ben turning the donkey wheel and Jesus Christ straining at the cross did you? The way he was sacrificing himself for the good of his people?

Some people have no problem believing in the absolute goodness of a God that allows famine and death to persist in the world. They say it's all part of a grander scheme, one we cannot question nor comprehend.

So let me ask the question of whether, say, the Island would consider Ben a good person? It's the most important thing to him. If we could ask, and the Island could answer, what do you think that answer would be? Me personally, I think the answer would be yes. Ben's been the Island's dutiful son; longstanding leader of The Others. We've witnessed Ben at the end of his reign, when his tenure had run out and his time to leave the throne up.

The bottom line is I cannot believe Ben is a bad guy. I think he serves a cause with devotion, and he believes that cause to be absolutely good. And maybe, when we understand that cause better, maybe then we'll be better fixed to judge.

by **Lojozz** Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:08 pm

"So hand's up who thinks Ben's a bad guy? Well. . . my hand stays down. Why? Despite all of the above, why? Surely it's not about the small actions, good or bad, of the man - but in the point we know Ben works on a higher agenda. Lojozz side-stepped the point (he tried to do it quickly, like a magician with a dove up his sleeve) about the greater good, but the greater good is everything."

OK AC firstly this debate is not 'Is Ben a Bad Guy', there is a fairly wide scope between not being a good guy and actually being a bad guy.

I side stepped the point of the greater good?, we do not know what this greater good is, we only have Ben's word that he is the good guy for all we know he could be acting for the greater bad and (As MSHL stated) Widmore could be acting for the greater good.

"You didn't notice the parallel between Ben turning the donkey wheel and Jesus Christ straining at the cross did you? The way he was sacrificing himself for the good of his people?"

Did you just compare Ben to Christ? Really? Remind me of the bible stories about Jesus murdering his father, oh that would be God wouldn't it. Remind me the bible stories of Christ kidnapping.

I notice you say 'some people' have no problem believing, you of course are not one of them, so using an argument you fundemtally disagree with seems a little churlish to me.

As for a talking Island, what? We have absolutely no idea what the island would say. Did the island not give Ben cancer? Is it not Jacob who is banishing Ben?

You finish in the same way you started saying you do not believe Ben to be a bad guy. That does not make him a good guy.

by AngeloComet Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:26 pm

LJ, you're like Neo employing bullet-dodging techniques.

"Did you just compare Ben to Christ? Really? Remind me of the bible stories about Jesus murdering his father, oh that would be God wouldn't it. Remind me the bible stories of Christ kidnapping."

I stated there was a clear parallel of a man sacrificing himself for a greater good. I didn't say Ben was Jesus Christ. But the parallel was deliberate and apparent - and if Ben really is a nasty piece of work, the scene is actually borderline blasphemous!

"I notice you say 'some people' have no problem believing, you of course are not one of them"

Evidently, this is not the time nor the place for such discussion. But it's a fact that some people believe in a God, any God, and some people don't. My statement was accurate and bore no relation to my own personal opinion. My point was that people ratify goodness with unmitigated badness every day. If you like, you can think of all the bad things you've done in your life and ask yourself: Are you a good person?

Bad deeds alone do not make a person bad.

"As for a talking Island, what? We have absolutely no idea what the island would say."

Now you're being silly. Locke has talked of 'speaking to the Island' many times. The Island speaks in dreams and visions to its people. The Island talks, and you know it. Which brings me to:

"Did the island not give Ben cancer? Is it not Jacob who is banishing Ben?"

As I stated, we are witnessing Ben at the end of his reign. After years of good service, his time is up and the Island has apparently decreed that Locke is its new leader. That's a bitter pill for Ben to swallow, no question. But he lead the Island and its people for many, many years - the Island could have given him cancer or demanded he be banished much earlier had he not been 'good'.

The reasons you condemn Ben as bad are petty and/or arguably justified in a grander scale of the greater good. He is not a bad man driven to do bad things as the "sociopath" you have tried to paint him as. He simply isn't that guy.

If he is not a bad guy then he must be a good guy. Will Ben be the one that leads the O6 back? I think so. Will that be to the ultimate benefit and lead Lost to the 'happy ending' we ought to be delivered to? I think so. At the end the good he has done, the scale of his actions and the sacrifices he has made will be clearer.

by **Lojozz** Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:09 pm

"I stated there was a clear parallel of a man sacrificing himself for a greater good. I didn't say Ben was Jesus Christ. But the parallel was deliberate and apparent - and if Ben really is a nasty piece of work, the scene is actually borderline blasphemous!"

Ben did not sacrifice himself, he did not suffer on a cross he just gave up control of an island that no longer wanted him. "Forgive them farther for they know not what they do", "Well I hope you're happy now Jacob". Yeah you're right thats almost exact!

"Bad deeds alone do not make a person bad." but they sure as shit don't make him good.

"As I stated, we are witnessing Ben at the end of his reign. After years of good service, his time is up and the Island has apparently decreed that Locke is its new leader. That's a bitter pill for Ben to swallow, no question. But he lead the Island and its people for many, many years - the Island could have given him cancer or demanded he be banished much earlier had he not been 'good'."

How can you say that it was good service, there is no evidence of that, the only evidence we do have is that when somebody came along that was better the island got rid quick smart. That does not make him good.

"The reasons you condemn Ben as bad are petty and/or arguably justified in a grander scale of the greater good. He is not a bad man driven to do bad things as the "sociopath" you have tried to paint him as. He simply isn't that guy."

Petty? Murder, Kidnap, revenge, sending a man to death because of jealousy. These are not petty, there are few crimes worse. How can you say that Ben is not a Sociopath look at it logically and compare him with profile evidence, there is no doubt.

"If he is not a bad guy then he must be a good guy." What? Now who's being silly. So there are only two type of person good or bad. You have not even proved that he isn't bad and then you jump to this ridiculous conclusion that he must be good.

by AngeloComet Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:41 pm

Actually, I was thinking (as you know by now, since I e-mailed it) more of the 'Father, why have you forsaken me?' angle in reference to Ben and his "I hope you're happy now, Jacob."

Murder? Who did he murder? Keamy? Understandable. He deserved it. And since we've not seen him carry out any threat against Penny yet you're holding him up for a crime not yet perpetrated. Anyone else? His father? Yes. Again, justifiable (30 years of parental neglect, of being blamed for his mother's death) and arguably Alpert was the real mastermind.

Is Alpert a bad person? Are all The Others bad people? Where are you taking this line of logic, exactly?

Goodwin? We don't know the truth about Goodwin. For all we know he burned himself sabotaging operations at The Tempest, secretly planning a mass murder of all its people on Widmore's behalf using the chemicals there.

We don't know the full picture. You're quick to condemn without full knowledge of the facts.

If Locke is commanded by Jacob, or Alpert, to kidnap 'good people' who happen to land on the Island - knowing the purpose behind such kidnap - does that make Locke a bad person?

There's a form of blinkered, narrow-mindedness to your argument that more and more convinces me to err on the side of 'good Ben' than otherwise.

by **Lojozz** Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:36 pm

You're parralel does not work, Jesus was on the cross dying and calling out to be saved. Ben is throwing out a petulant remark to Jacob.

OK AC here is what I suggest, go back and read my arguments from the start. I have answered all of these points previously.

"Is Alpert a bad person? Are all The Others bad people? Where are you taking this line of logic, exactly?" What line of logic, where did you bring that from from. Let me remind you yet again that I am debating against Ben being the good guy.

"There's a form of blinkered, narrow-mindedness to your argument that more and more convinces me to err on the side of 'good Ben' than otherwise." Again! I am debating that ben is not a good guy, I do not think it is being narrow mind to point out the bad things Ben has done.

So far I have not been given a single (not one) instance of Ben doing anything that could fully be considerd good. I have however pointed out many things that no matter how you cut it are most definetly not good.

by AngeloComet Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:50 pm

"I have however pointed out many things that no matter how you cut it are most definetly not good."

Like your spelling of the world 'definitely', that last statement is not true.

The line of logic against Alpert being bad was that it was he who was involved in engineering 'the purge'. Ben sided with them. You level his patricide as a chief reason to label him bad. So the line of logic follows that Alpert is bad. All 'the hostiles' are bad. The Others are bad. Jacob is bad. . .

Hey! Remember that time Sawyer shot dead Tom in cold blood? Laugh a minute, that. But Sawyer's still a good guy. So's Hurley - for running over those other Others and killing them. Total good guy. When Jack pulled the trigger on Locke, he was being a good guy. See also: Charlie shooting Ethan. Ana killing Goodwin. (Goodwin snapped Nathan's neck, by the by. Seems he wasn't Mr. Innocent!) Michael killing Libby and Ana Lucia. . . Mr. Eko killing two Others. . . Locke throwing a knife in Naomi's back. . .

If Ben's bad not good what the hell are all these other people?

by **StitchExp626** Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:57 pm

Hey AC and Lojozz, wow this is way better than Itchy and Scratchy Show, or is that the AC and Lojozz Show. I think that the winner of the debate is AC .... aaaaaahh ............. oooops, that's right he is not eligible. Damn!

POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy 320775789

POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy 320775789

Stitch

by Sponsored content

POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Is Ben a Good Guy?

POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Re: POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy