Debate - MSBHL V Lojozz - WINNER ANNOUNCED!!!

by **SunburnedPenguin** Mon May 26, 2008 2:08 pm

Lojozz wrote:

I
think the key word in arguing that the Losties where brought to the
island as part of plan is ‘manipulation’. The definition of
manipulation is ‘Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own
advantage.’ In manipulating somebody or something you are trying for an
end result that will be of benefit, in other words you have a plan to
gain. So every time you see an example of manipulation I want you to
think plan, because what is the point of manipulation if it does not
achieve your goals or your plan.

OK, as Lost progresses we see
more and more of the ‘big picture’ and that big picture seems to
suggest a power struggle for the island. This power struggle seems to
be between two sides black/white good/bad call it what you will. What
matters is the fact that certain people are protected by the island,
Michael can’t be killed, they all miraculously survived a plane
breaking up in mid air. I believe that these people (who have this
protection) have been manipulated onto the island to play a part in
this struggle. Somebody or something has brought these people here as
part of a plan to gain control of the island. Now at this point we
don’t know who or what is responsible for this plan, it could even be
the island manipulating them to set itself free, until we see more of
the picture we will not know, but just because we don’t know the plan
doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

So lets look at the way some of
our Losties got onto the plane and consider the fact that they have
clearly been manipulated into the positions that got them to the
island.

First off lets look at Christian Shepherd the man
equally at home in Jacob’s cabin as he is appearing to his son in the
future, long after his supposed death. Christian seems to be in some
way responsible for at least four of the Losties getting to the island.
Jack went to Australia to collect his body, Ana Lucia went to Australia
as his body guard. When Sawyer was having doubts about killing Duckett
it was Christian who told him to ’take care of business’ or end up like
him. This gave Sawyer that last little nudge he needed to kill Duckett
and ultimately end up on flight 815. Christian also made Claire believe
that her mother was already dead, a fact that we now know must have
been greatly exaggerated, this belief that her mother would not be
around to help must have played some part in Claire’s decision to go to
LA and give up the baby.

These are four examples of Christian
in some way manipulating people to be in a position to be on flight 815
and we still don’t have the full picture, how many more of the losties
I wonder did Christian appear to, just at the right time to tip their
fate the 815 way. When we see Christian with Claire in Jacobs cabin it
is clear that he is a major part of the mystery of Lost and when that
is coupled with him being in the right place to manipulate at least 4
of the lead players to the island you have to consider that this is
part of some plan.

Now lets turn our attention to Locke, this is
a man that seems to have been under the islands protection from the day
he was born. Helping him survive premature birth, a myriad of childhood
diseases and a plummet from an eighth storey window (that we’ve seen so
far). It would seem that it has always been part of ’a plan’ for Locke
to be on the island. If it was just destiny for Locke to end up on the
island then why would Richard have gone to test young Locke, why would
Richard try to get Locke to attend Science camp, why would Abaddon feel
the need to tell Locke to go on a walkabout. I’m not saying that it’s
not Lockes destiny to end up on the island just that people have been
manipulating him as well. Once you have manipulation then you have a
reason for manipultion which is to achieve an end result which in turns
means a plan.

So Locke gives us evidence that the islands
protection is not just something that happened by chance when they
crashed, it would seem the people on the plane already had this
protection. Add this to the examples of manipulation and you must start
to see something resembling a plan.

I am aware that all of the
points made can be shrugged off with ‘there’s no way that the
manipulator could be certain that things would work out as they did,
too much could go wrong’ and this is all true, or at least it would be
with any other show. This is Lost a show that gives us Ben, the man who
always has a plan, the great ‘Benipulator’ he seems almost infallible
at times in his manipulation. So we have to question what part of the
picture do we not yet see. How is it that Ben is so good at
manipulation? Time Travel? I don’t know and it doesn’t matter, I only
have to argue that the Losties are on the island as part of a plan, I
don’t have to describe the plan or know what it is, I don’t even have
to know who’s plan it is. All I need to know is that there has been
manipulation to get the Losties on the plane. Once you have
manipulation you have a goal and the only way to achieve that goal is
with a plan. I have shown five examples of Losties in some way being
manipulated, 4 of them by the same man, this is not down to fate or
coincidence it is clearly part of a as yet unknown plan.

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:

Was the crash of flight 815 planned and was it part of a plan to bring specific people to the island? Every plan must
have a goal; the reason for implementing the plan in the first place.
The goal of crashing 815 could only have been the delivery of the
Losties to the island.. But was there a plan? I believe there was not.
In fact, with all of the nearly-uncontrollable variables involved in
getting even one of our Losties on flight 815, I do not believe that a
plan of such scale would even be possible.
Even if we limited this
plan to just key people (Jack, Locke and Hurley) the short answer is
still no. It’s simply impossible to cause all of the necessary events
needed to bring that group of individuals to the exact right spot at
the exact right time. Accounting for all the possible outcomes of
actions intended to influence even just one person to be on 815 strains
probability far beyond it’s breaking point.
In Jack’s case, for example, let’s look at what had to happen to get him onto 815.
A
woman’s injured in an auto accident. Drunk Christian Shephard is called
while in a restaurant to operate on her even though Jack’s closer. CS
botches the operation. Woman dies. Jack turns in Christian. CS loses
his license. Goes to Australia. Drinks himself dead. Jack’s mother
convinces him to go after CS. Jack finds him and then convinces the
Oceanic employee to let him take his father’s body home against policy.
The plane has mechanical difficulties, turns back and disintegrates in
mid air near the island. Jack is thrown from the plane and SURVIVES the
fall!
Hurley‘s variables are similar. He has to buy a winning
lottery ticket. Multiple disasters must befall him. He has to find the
origins of the numbers, fly to Australia…etc. Additionally, if he
oversleeps just ten more minutes or encounters only one more obstacle
on the way to the airport, he misses the flight.
John Locke’s case
is the most incredible since one of the variables involved in his being
on 815 is his injury---falling eight stories, snapping his spine and
surviving!
Even if Jacob/the island wanted JUST Locke, there are
many better ways to get him there without risking his life in the
air-crash. Richard Alpert could have visited Locke and given him some
line about his destiny; “…you are meant for more than what your life is
now.” Locke, already susceptible to the ‘you have a special destiny”
spiel, would’ve jumped at the chance to go to the island.
Also
remember that Ben, while recovering from surgery, questioned Locke
about his regaining the ability to walk. He asked if Locke’s ability to
walk again returned gradually or if he could walk again right after the
crash. So Ben, the Others’ leader and the only one who communicates
with Jacob, had no knowledge of any plan to bring anyone to the island.
He was as surprised by the 815 crash as the rest of the Others. And if
no person or “entity“ on the island had prior knowledge of the coming
crash, there is only one possible conclusion: There was no plan!
Any
plan involving the Losties/flight 815 would be one created AFTER the
crash. People on the plane who served Jacob’s/the island’s needs were
“on the list” and those who weren’t were allowed to die after the
crash---a crash, as we’ve seen, that was accidentally caused by
Desmond’s lack of button-pushing action, not by some complicated plan.
In
the past, the Others have taken people who were on the plane because
they were “good people.” i.e.: people that Jacob/the island could use.
This is improvisation, not a plan! Ben admitted that most of the Others
were brought to the island and I think we can take him at his word
since we saw Juliette recruited by the Others. She was brought there
for a purpose and bringing her there did not involve some complicated,
convoluted plan with countless, unforeseeable variables that could ruin
everything. It was a simple, straightforward recruiting effort that,
after being adjusted to suit the motivations of the recruit, would have
worked for anyone that Jacob/the island wanted.
“But Jacob has the
power to do all of this!” Nope, afraid not. The power to anticipate a
nearly-infinite number of variables and influence their outcome, is so
close to God-like that Jacob wouldn’t need anyone else to pursue his
goals. He could act autonomously without assistance. And to say
something like: “Well Jacob/the island can do these things but he is
hampered by (insert excuse here)” is merely an artificial limitation
imposed for drama‘s sake. You can’t be both all-powerful AND limited.
Of
course, this argument hinges on Jacob/the island being behind any plan
to bring down 815 and therefore, bring the Losties to the island. But
what if it’s someone else- Widmore, Paik or perhaps Dharma? That’s even
less likely because:
1. The ability to manipulate billions of
variables to get even one person onto 815 without their knowledge of
the manipulation is far beyond the capabilities of any
person/organization. Its like long-range weather predictions-There are
far too many variables involved with each changed variable causing the
variables following it to also change in unpredictable ways.
2. Why would any person/organization bring someone to the island (Locke) who would work against them? They wouldn’t!
Regardless
of how we feel personally about the “Mystical” aspects of Lost, we must
all acknowledge that any explanation of any event seen on the island
requires a scientific explanation, no matter how incredible the science
or even if we don’t understand the science involved. If ignored, Lost
becomes nothing more than fantasy with no rules, reasons or results
beyond “it‘s magic.” ; Lost isn’t Harry Potter with palm trees.
Acknowledging
these facts, we can only conclude that flight 815’s crash was NOT
planned and any attempt to use the Losties for Jacob’s/the island’s
benefit occurred after the crash.

Question time will now commence for 48 hours, at the end of which a poll will be added. Happy debating!

by **Lojozz** Mon May 26, 2008 2:26 pm

OK first up, it seems we have debated a slightly different argument, I argued Losties- Intentionally brought to the island as part of a plan? 815 is not part of that argument but as the Losties got to the island via 815 then I suppose it doesn't matter.

MSHL you state a very convoluted case for Jack getting on the flight when in fact the only part that matters is going to Australia to collect his fathers body.

Also I would argue that there was no danger of injury to any of the key players (from a plane crash) as they were under the islands protection.

by AngeloComet Mon May 26, 2008 3:05 pm

I would have thought both arguments would have spent a little concentration on the point that, if there is a plan for the Oceanic 815 survivors, then what is it?

Was there a plan for Ana Lucia? Shannon? How do these people fit? Or are only some of them part of the 'plan' and the rest expendable? If so, as MSHL stated, why not do it the 'Juliet way' and manipulate them 'one-on-one' to get them to the Island?

Good arguments, to start, gentlemen. I foresee quite a battle ahead, though. . . And my mind is yet to be made up.

by **Lojozz** Mon May 26, 2008 4:54 pm

Hm AC If I knew what the plan was then there wouldn't be much debate about whether or not there was a plan.

The 'Juliet way' would only work if there was time to bring them one by one. What if they all needed to come to the island together.

Ana and Shannon could have been part of the plan but they have served their purpose. Them dying as and when they did could be part of the plan, but I admit that is stretching.

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Mon May 26, 2008 7:42 pm

Anna and Shannon could have been part of a plan, but that assumes the
there WAS a plan, more speciffically, a plan before the crash.
There is no evidence of this.

We may want there to be a plan because as humans, we like patterns and
logic and for things to make sense. but things don't always work that
way.

If I want to get someone to come see me where I work, I don't arrange
for them to crash their car in front of my place of business, I get
them there directly.

Lojozz, you mention the the Juliette method would work if there was
time to bring them there one by one, but not if all of them needed to
come to the island together. but I counter that that is exctly the
opposite of reality. How much lead time would you need to get Jack to
the island...weeks? How about Locke? start with his whole lifetime,
or at least the four years since his spinal injury. In fact, the "Juliete recruiting method" is the faster and more efficient method of getting anyone to the island whether you need them there fast or not!

The case of Jack getting to the island is very convoluted, any one
factor that changed would have completely altered the outcome.

The most important thing to remember is this: DESTINY is not a PLAN!
We have seen the course-correcting theme in Lost before. If someone is
Meant to be on the island as a part of their destiny then no
manipulation or scheming is gong to change that destiny. It wil course
correct. This point was hammered home to Desmond over and over as it
was with Charlie.

For example, what if the plan was to keep Hurley off of the island. How
would someone try to sabotage his efforts to board flight 815? His
electrical outlet in his room was sabotaged so his alarm wouldn't go
off (He still woke up) His car would be sabotaged so he would break
down on the way to the airport (he still made it to the airport) Traffic could be manipulated so that
he wound up in the wrong terminal and would have to run through the
airport to get to the right gate. Still, HE MAKES THE FLIGHT! This
argument can be made from the other side as well. Lets say that someone wants him on the flight and, Despite all of the
obstacles in his way, HE MAKES THE FLIGHT! Regardless of what happens,
the universe course corrects to allow him and any of the other Losties
to make the doomed flight.

This is not a plan, it is destiny!!! The two cannot be confused or interechanged.

the very definition of destiny is that it is a future that cannot be
altered. This definition of destiny and it's inalterable nature is
seen repeatedly in Lost and cannot be discounted. If the Losties were
on flight 815 it is becasue they were destined to be on it. This is
not a plan! This is the natural course of events unfolding as fate,
destiny and the universe requires.

No matter what Desmond did, Charlie died as fate required him to. Mrs. Hawking told Desmond about the course correcting aspects of the universe and we've seen this repeatedly on Lost. Destiny cannot be altered by the plans of men, organizations or undefined entities.

The events unfold, both on and off the island, not because they were planned, but becasue destiny REQUIRES them to do so. Not a plan---Destiny

by **Lojozz** Mon May 26, 2008 8:09 pm

I have to disagree that the Juliet method would be quicker, they would all need to be coerced and that takes time, but not to get bogged down in that, if they come one by one they would not form the bond that they form through the adversity of the crash. Perhaps the plan requires them to form this bond.

We do not have the full picture we do not know what powers are available to manipulate these events. We have seen what look to be time travel and teleportation used and with these kind of powers I think I could manipulate somebody onto a plane.

We still don't know the full story of Desmond, there are huge inconsistencies in the whole course correction thing. If course correction is true then why do we need Mrs Hawkin, surely if the universe is going to course correct it does need her to interfere. Desmond realised just before he was hit that he probably could change his destiny. Do we still believe that we will see Claire and Aaron get on the helicopter together? I'm not sure we can fully believe all Desmond says and I would argue that Charlie died as a result of what Des told him. Consider the opposite had Des not saved Charlie in the first place then how would the events unfolding on the island have happened? They wouldn't. Surely that is changing the destiny of every one of them on the island.

In the world of Lost I think its folly to say that destiny can not be manipulated we have seen it happen.

by treesitter Mon May 26, 2008 9:17 pm

(Hey guys, it´s my first post here)

I really like the topic you´ve decided to argue about because I am not
sure which side I agree with, yet. So, I hope your debate will lighten
up my own thoughts about it.

One thing I don´t understand is the argument about the "Juliet method".
The question whether it is faster to bring people to the Island in this way or not
inclines that Ben and the Others are behind the manipulation. We don´t
know if that´s the case, especially as we witnessed they can do
faster: Anthony Cooper was brought there within hours (well, at least
we, the audience, have to assume it due to the brief span between Ben´s
order to "bring the man from Tallahassee" and his appearence in the dark room.)

Therefore, is it right to conclude Ben and the Others are not the
ones behind the crash of Flight 815 (if there is any manipulation at all)?

by **Lojozz** Mon May 26, 2008 9:32 pm

Hey treesitter are you sittingintrees on LT? If so I remember you and its nice to see you posting here. If not its still nice to see you posting.

You are correct we cant assume that Ben and the others are behind it and I would probably go as far as to say the fact that Ben requested files off Mikhail would probably mean that he definitely isn't behind it.

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Mon May 26, 2008 9:58 pm

If there WAS a plan, It would not be unreasonable to assume that Ben/jacob/island are responsible for bringing Locke's father there...but the rest of the losties? Well if they are responsible, we've seen how they do it...recuriting (the Juliet method) and The Magic Box method (Reasonable to assume that this method employs the Orchid Station)
These are pretty straightforward methods...ones not involving manipulating such a large and diverse group into getting on a particular airliner.

if you assume someone else is responsible for bringing the Losties (Widmore, Paik etc) then why not just directly bring the Losties there. Some subtrefuge is fine but such a convoluted plan is needlessly complicated. And if it was a party off the island that brought them there then they could not protect the "chosen ones" on the flight from harm during the crash so they wouldn't that risk.

That leaves Ben/Jacob/Island responsible for any supposed plan. But, as I stated in my first argument, the evidence shows that none of the Others had any knowledge of any plan...they were as surprised at the crash of 815 as anyone.

Lojozz, flight 815 IS a part of the plan to bring the Losties there since it is the instrumentality of their arrival. And an unbelievably dangerous instrumentality at that. Why crash a plane and protect the "chosen ones" at all? why not use the Orchid station or any one of a thousand other methods that don't risk the lives of the losties?

That being the case, that flight 815 was part of the plan, Desmond would have had to have been manipulated as well. He would have to have been influenced to follow his Kelvin outside, kill him and then not make it back in time to push the button. What if Desmond REALLY, REALLY had to go to the bathroom when Kelvin left because he ate too much Dharma ranch composite dressing the night before! He wouldn't have seen Kelvin suiting up, seen the tear in his suit and followed him.

THAT's the big problem with the "plan"-any simple change in one of a million variables involving any one of the Losties changes the plan completely...the outcomes are totally different than those desired.

Also, Lojozz, you are right when you say that the plan is quite convoluted as far as Jack getting on the plane. You are not correct, however, when you say that all that matters is that he gets to Australia to collect his father's body. Much more than that matters. Just think of all the little things that could have changed Christian Shephard's fate. Maybe Anna Lucia doesn't let him get out of the car to go drink himself to death at the bar...maybe Anna Lucia decidest o not even go to Australia with CS. I could go on and on with examples of how CS's death could have been prevented because the possible deviations from the "plan" go on and on. IF one of these changes occurs, CS doesn't die and Jack never gets on flight 815.

AC, In regards to this argument, "what is the plan" does not matter as much as "is there a plan" If there is no plan then we are seeing destiny play out. If there is a plan then it is the most fragile, convoluted plan ever concieved.

Again, we are seeing destiny play itself out as it should in the world of Lost. No plan counter to destiny could work as we have seen over and over. The Universe course-correct...the best laid plans of mice or men (or Ben/Jacob/islandWidmore/Paik/anyone else) do not matter. The plan (which could not have existed) wouldn't have and couldn't have worked. These people are on the island at this precise time becasue they are supposed to be, not because they were manipulated there.

No plan...destiny

by tracker Mon May 26, 2008 10:46 pm

VERY good job on both sides...mmmmmmm (thinking)

by TheHolyStickman Mon May 26, 2008 11:02 pm

MSHL, if your saying that the people on Jacobs list are improvised after they crashed. Then explain how Locke was there, Locke who was thought to be special from a young age, who then landed on the same island as the man who thought he was special and survived the crash. Your saying that was improvised.

by **Lojozz** Mon May 26, 2008 11:16 pm

MSHL we know that Locke has been protected by the island from birth and the only reasonable way for that many people to survive that crash is that the island saved them. So there is no danger.

Why not just bring the Losties there, well I would posit that the losties are not supposed to know they are part of a plan. Perhaps the plan relies on them not knowing about the plan. That ties quite nicely to how Ben manipulates. If Widmore or Paik or whoever just kidnapped all the losties and plonked them on the island their behavior would be very different would it not?

As for Des being manipulated I don't think that is too big a problem, Kelvin knows him inside out. He just has to wait till he knows Des is watching to put the suit on.

Dont rely to heavily on course correction because as I stated above we have seen the destiny of every single person on the island changed due to Des saving Charlie until he unlocked the looking glass.

by nino_1 Tue May 27, 2008 12:34 am

this is great im gonna grave a beer and watch ring side

by TheHolyStickman Tue May 27, 2008 1:37 am

by TheHolyStickman Tue May 27, 2008 1:40 am

Lojozz wrote:

Why not just bring the Losties there, well I would posit that the losties are not supposed to know they are part of a plan. Perhaps the plan relies on them not knowing about the plan. That ties quite nicely to how Ben manipulates. If Widmore or Paik or whoever just kidnapped all the losties and plonked them on the island their behavior would be very different would it not?

Exactly what I was going to post. Even though my mind isnt made up yet, I keep arguing on Lojozz's side. If Locke was 'destined' to be the leader of the others then he should think its completely of his own doing. He should think he's special. The island tore down his depression problems, and knowing that someone manipulated him to get there would destroy him. Ignorance is bliss.

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Tue May 27, 2008 1:42 am

Ben was WATCHED by the others since birth. How many other potential candidates were also watched. If there is time travel, then future others could see that Locke would become a player on the island. This does not mean that they made him a player as part of some "plan."

And more importantly, It is just as likely (even more likely, in fact) that, if the Others have time-travel ability (which is almost certain through the Orchid Station) that they began to travel back to observe Locke AFTER they became aware of his "specialness" following the crash of 815. I would even venture to guess that Richard Alpert, not the biggest fan of Ben and the ONLY Other we've seen interact with young Locke, discoverd how special Locke is, (after the crash) and went back in time to try to accelerate Locke on his journey to be leader of the Others, thus replacing Ben before he even took over leadership of the others! But this did not work...why? because the universe course-corrects and Locke was not meant to be on the island before the crash.

Those who think that the Others do not have time travel abilities, please remember that Ben asked the Hotel clerk in Tunisa what the date was...AND THE YEAR...just to be sure he was in the right time.

Being part of a destiny does not mean being part of a PLAN...unless it is destiny's plan...which is no plan at all.

As for Desmond's visions, his actions regarding Charlie and course-correction wemust remember this. Desmond's visions were all mostly correct. He forsaw the lightning striking the hut, Claire drowning, the arrow through Charlie's neck and the woman parachuting from the helicopter. He saw these events BEFORE they happened. Only his intervention changed the fact that Charlie was killed. So his visions would have 100% correct if he had not interfered. And even with his attempts to alter destiny, Charlie still died.
Unless Desmond had some plan to get Charlie killed, then his visions and their accuracey must be taken at face value-foretelling the future accurately.
And if this is the case, his attempts to "change destiny" failed...course-correction has worked perfectly and must also be taken as a Lost "law". To say that we can't rely heavily on course-correction is only an opinion, it is not a fact...we have SEEN the course-correction mechanism in action and we have seen absolutlely NO evidence that the island can "alter" or circumvent destiny.

Part of the reason that people want to believe that there is a plan is becasue the idea of destiny can be pretty unpleasent. Destiny means there is no free will, an idea that does not sit well with most of us. The notion that we have no choice over our futures and that fate or distiny dictates what happens to us, regardless of our actions, is horrible idea for most people. But this is the world Lost Presents us with. John Locke himself shouting to the heavens "I have a destiny!" Well apparently he does, and we all know it.

But as I've said before and As I will say again: DESTINY IS NOT A PLAN!

by TheHolyStickman Tue May 27, 2008 1:47 am

Sorry for posting again.

It seems that something is manipulationg them to get to the island. One example that has popped into my head was that Richard Malkin the Physic guy was a self-confessed fraud. He cleary had a vision or saw something with Claire, why would he have called her, gave the money back ect. Something or someone was putting ideas into his head. Maybe it wasnt true, maybe Claire doesnt need to raise the baby alone, but it was something that got her on the island.

TheHolyStickman

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Tue May 27, 2008 1:47 am

HolyStickMan, if you beleive that Locke was/is destined to be the leader of the Others then you are automatically saying that there is not plan. A plan cannot change destiny, that is why it is called destiny.

Locke is where he is because he is supposed to be there. This is why he didn't go as a child or adolescent or teen. His being there at those ages was not part of destiny. His destiny was to arrive at the island at the right time and place. Destiny is not a plan. it is an series of outcomes that are unalterable by any entity except for an all-powerful God. Destiny is written in stone, that's why it is called destiny.

"This is my destiny..."
--John Locke

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Tue May 27, 2008 1:59 am

We do not know the motivation of Richard Malkin. Was he a fraud? was he a genuine Psychic? Did he have a genuine vision? Was he part of some massive, unwieldy pan to get Claire on the airplane. Who knows?
But without knowing Malkin's motivations, you can't say, one way or the other who or what he was and if he was a part of destiny or a plan.

He neither supports or detracts from either side of the question here. He is an unknown variable which cannot be used in deciding the answer to our main question because there are just too many unanswered questions about him.

Until we find out where he fits in the big picture, we can't say how he fits into the Lost puzzle.

by AngeloComet Tue May 27, 2008 10:18 am

I would even venture to guess that Richard Alpert, not the biggest fan of Ben and the ONLY Other we've seen interact with young Locke, discoverd how special Locke is, (after the crash) and went back in time to try to accelerate Locke on his journey to be leader of the Others,

I don't agree with this so I'll argue against this point. Fundamentally, if Alpert came to realise that Locke was special after he crashed, why bother accelerating it? He's there. He's special. Get on with it!

(And if he did go back and intend to speed the process up, knowing Locke would be special, well. . . he failed. Or changed his mind? Either way, it's pointless.)

And Lozz, the reason I brought up the idea of a what the plan is as an arguing point serves you both. If there isn't one - that is, if neither of you an conjure any kind of plan - then the design argument flops. You don't have design without intent. If there is no intent, there can be no design.

Likewise, if design can be perceived (and Locke is a case in point, and Juliet's recruitment to the Island is a microcosm of the design for intent case) then there must have been intentional planning.

by TheHolyStickman Tue May 27, 2008 11:14 am

Ok MSHL your starting to sway my opinions, but I didnt mean that
destiny wanted Locke to come to the island, I meant that Jacob/Island
wanted him to. And so if Jacob wanted Locke to become leader he would
have to think it was of his own doing. In a future episode I can see
that Locke will be about to become the leader, then he is told by a
bitter Ben that everything he has done, every decision, every move, It
was all orchestrated by this man. Points at Jacob. Im a bit lost after this, but I know that Lockes reaction wont be good.

At the moment perhaps the most important event that has happened on
the island in the history of the island. It seems that the losties have
an important part to play. Jacks determination, Lockes spiritual
journey, Micheals betrayel. These things seem to fit in perfectly with
the power struggle, if Jack had not been so determined to get off the
island for example, then he might have listened to Ben and not called
the frieties. If these exact people had not came to the island it would
be a very different place.

Also an argument on MSHL's side for once. The interconnectedness, if
the flight wasn planned how to explain the fact that Sawyer was in a
bar with Jacks dad, Hurley was in a mental hospital with Libby, Jack is
related to Claire.
Answer; coincidence, you can put this down to a simple honest
coincdence. Think, have any of these things ever effect anything on the
island, no. Jack didnt know that Claire was his sister, Libby died
before Hurley found out she was in the same mental instutution
(spelling). They dont matter, So if Lojozz you want the play the
interconnectedness card then just think about that.

TheHolyStickman

by **Lojozz** Tue May 27, 2008 12:26 pm

AC I take your point but anything I come up with as a plan is purely speculation and can be shot down as such, remember 1000 words is pretty limiting.

MSHL Richard Malkin certainly seems to be manipulating Claire and what does manipulation equal? He could also have had a hand in EKO being there.

Also let me repeat because you seem to be missing the point, if Des had NOT saved Charlie from the lightning strike then the freighties would not be on the island. Daniel, Alex, Karl, Red Shirts would all be still alive, try telling them destiny can not be changed because the universe will course correct, oh sorry you can't they are all dead.

Stickman Sawyer told Jack what his father really thought of him but regardless I never mentioned in my argument anything about interconnectedness, what I said was Christian Shepherd had a hand in manipulating (on separate occasions) at least 4 of our Losties.

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Tue May 27, 2008 6:19 pm

Lojozz, we can speculate that Malkin is manipulating Claire but we just don't know one way or the other. And the term Manipulation carries with it an almost sinister and, perhaps, unneccessary connotation..perhaps affect is more nuetral term. He may be trying to affect her descision but we have absolutely no idea why or what his motivations are.

AC brings up an excellent point: Intent. We do not know what motivated people before the crash. For example, the island's current intent seems to be the saving of the island and the Losties have become a part of that effort. But this seems to be a course of action set into motion after the crash, not a pre-determined course which involved bringing the Losties there. It involves using the resources (Losties) at hand to meet a specific goal.

Let me paint a picture: People going about their day...the ground shakes, the people run from their houses, look up and see a 777 breaking up in mid-air. The day is Sept 22, 2004 and the people watcing are the Others. Ben tells Ethan and Goodwin "...there may actually be survivors...I need lists in three days..." This painting shows a leader (Ben) thinking fast, making a descision and implementing a plan AFTER 815 breaks up, not before. If there was a plan to bring the Losties to the island, he would already know who was on the plane,he would already know if there were survivors and who the survivors were, he wouldn't need lists in 3 days.

And The point of Des saving Charlie does not factor in as much as you think LJ. We have seen the course-correcting mechanism in play. The minor variations in peoples' actions do not matter, the universe gets back on course regardless of the actions of anyone on Lost. Charlie gets saved but still dies...the freighties are meant to find the island and still do...we have no idea of destiny's course but the universe does and it will get back to that course regardless of any individual actions or deviations.

AC, I don't really Believe that Alpert tried indepenantly to accelerate Locke on his course to island leadership, I was trying to point out that since we have no real knowledge of when Locke became special to the island and whether Alpert's actions were in line with or opposed to Ben's, then we can only speculate as to the reasons behind the actions of those we have seen. And while anyones' speculation is as valid as anyone elses', it is mearly that-speculation.

The interconnectedness that HSM has raised is also an interesting one. If anyone here remembers the Original Star Trek episode "The City On The Edge Of Forever" where Kirk and Spock have to go back to 1930's Earth to undo damage that McCoy has done to the timeline, Spock says something to the effect of, "there is a theory that time is fluid, like a river with currents, eddys..." Kirk Replies, "And the same currents that swept McCoy to this place and time may have swept us here as well.." This seems to be a scientific explanation of Destiny. In other words, certain important events in history act as a sort of magnet, drawing in the key players to the event. The interconnectedness of the Losties before the crash show that these people are important to the outcome of events taking place on the island. This is not something subject to planning.

Jack meets Des in the stadium, Sawyer meets Christian in a bar, Libby and Hurley are in Santa Rosa together. Could these connections be coincidence? Sure, but the dozens of connections between the Losties prior to the crash might also speak of something FAR beyond any plan's capabilities...it speaks of destiny and the universe connecting the dots for us.

I have been to the UK several times. I have never met Lojozz or AC TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Does that mean I have never met them without realizing it? no, of course not. These random encounters between the Losties seems to be on level that seems to almost be tied to the very fabric of existence. That is not something somone can sit down and plan out. If one could do that then they would be as close to being God as one could ever hope to be.

The Losties are where they are because that is their destiny. Every experience and event in their lives has brought them to the same moment in spacetime. This is the point where the island takes advantage of their unique talents, gifts and abilities, even their interconnectedness to further it's own goals.

If we believe that Locke's destiny is to be on that island then we cannot discount the destinies of the other Losties.
"Destiny is a fickel bitch." and she is also an unforgiving one as well. And any plans anyone may make get thrown in the dumpster if she doesn't agree with them.

And as we have seen on Lost many, many times...Destiny rules, plans are only sound and fury, signifying nothing.

by MyStarbuckHatesLost Tue May 27, 2008 7:13 pm

Just to follow up on a few quick points:

Lojozz states that Locke has been protected by the island since birth...THis is supposition. as we have only seen him observed by Richard Alpert. No indiction of protection has been shown yet.

HSM observes that Locke may have been cured of his depression and that it might be better for him to not have known that he was part of some plan.
But let me present this scenario to you in regards to that:

Richard Alpert approaches a horribly depressed, wheelchair-bound Locke. He presents him with a proposal to go to a place where he can be more than he is now, where he can fulfill his special destiny. Locke, reluctant at first, is swayed by Alpert's allusions to his specialness in the same way that Juliette is swayed by Alpert and decides "what the hell, what have I got to lose?"
John wakes up on the island surrounded by Alpert and several of the Others.
Alpert says to him, "Get up John."
John looks at Alpert, confused, and says, 'I CAN'T get up...if I could I wouldn't need that damned wheelchair."
Alpert's eyes drill into John and he responds, "Don't tell me what you can't do John...get up."
John Locke tries and finds that he can get up and that he can again walk.

Think that wouldn't cure Locke of his depression? Hell yes it would. It would make him a part of the others and the island. He would be a convert, a believer and it would be a hell of a lot easier than manipulating him onto a plane and crashing that plane onto the island.

by **Lojozz** Tue May 27, 2008 10:07 pm

MSHL its funny you recently told me you are a lazy man and yet you post 1125 words without reply, given the original debate is only 1000 words thats some going.
Sad

Some Quick notes:

I'd already said it was unlikely that it was down to Ben

Malkin either way you cut it (fake or not) manipulated Claire to some end. Manipulation = Plan

You state the island is now using the Losties for a specific goal I find this interesting if they all have their destiny pre-defined.

I already addressed the interconnectedness and as I said before its not involved in my argument and I'm not even going to go near Star Trek.

If Des didn't save Charlie the freighties would not be on the island. Fact. At least 6 people would still be alive and assets to the island.

'Destiny is a fickel bitch' nice quote. Lets have the definition of fickle
1. likely to change, esp. due to caprice, irresolution, or instability; casually changeable: fickle weather.

2. not constant or loyal in affections: a fickle lover.

I like the 'not constant' part. This seems to fly somewhat in the face of course correction.

No evidence that Locke has always been under the islands protection? Hmm lets see, he survives an extremely premature birth, this would be very rare these days never mind back then, not impossible but unlikely. Then he fights off a myriad of diseases which in his weakened state must be considered almost miraculous. Then he survives a miracle fall and these are only the things we've seen. Thats enough evidence for me to believe he is protected.

Your case of Richard bringing Locke to the island is a good one but this would likely make Locke worship Richard and not the island.

Ok now Im gonna flip this a bit because all we need is a plan. Lets dig up Mrs Hawkin I've previously pointed out that if the universe course corrects on its own then why would she be needed?

So lets look at it this way, what if the people with the plan are the Time Guardians (I think AC first referred to them as such, but Im using it). Perhaps Christian is one and brother Campbell another. They know what the future is supposed to be, but because of the island and its anomalies with time, things get screwed up. So the plan becomes to put the right people in the right place to make sure that course correction can do its job. Now they normally do this in subtle ways. But when something like Des being so far back in time that he could actually rip the entire fabric of time which would 'kill everyone of them' they have to step in and be a bit more proactive.

The fact remains that Christian had a hand in four of them (at least) getting to the island and he shows up in Jacobs cabin to tell Locke to move the island. Seems to me like he has to be part of some plan. could he be appearing to Jack in the future because the plan went wrong and for course correction to work he has to go back, they all have to go back. Is Charlie now a time guardian because of the way he died?

So the plan is 'course correction' the Losties were brought to the island to allow it to do its job. They have a new plan and that is to get the Losties back to the island so course correction can try again. That is why Michael cant die he is needed for course correction to work.

Thats 619 words (including these) in case your interested! Laughing

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