POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Don't fret, folks. Lojozz argues like this because he wants to win. He isn't actually angry, I can assure you.

I trust no one else is.

As far as I can tell, in a Debate the gloves come off and it's all in the interests of the 'sport' for the winner to fight for the crown. The thing is, no matter how ruthless the argument, it all comes down to the judgement of everyone else.

Lojozz continues to marginalise the role of everyone else in comparison to Ben, and to try and state Ben's crimes in basic black and white terms (that dismissal of Roger Linus as a father-figure in your last commentwas so balefully watered-down I'm embarrassed for you, LJ!)

He wants to drag the argument away from 'not bad' to just 'good' because the semantics suit his purposes. Not surprising, Lojozz is trying to win.

I don't blame him for that.

Hope made some great points about the difficulty of leadership (kidnapping kids to ensure future generations, for example) and Ben has taken on that role wholly commitedly.

I ask again: If the Island could judge, would it consider Ben had been a good son?

"Don't fret, folks. Lojozz argues like this because he wants to win. He isn't actually angry, I can assure you.
I trust no one else is."

So say we all AC. (a little BSG ref for you)


Does the island consider Ben to be a good guy (or son as you put it)

I'd have to answer no to this question...you don't banish "good Guys"

Ok Ok MSHL, I see your point I really do. He was emotionally scarred as a boy and that doesn't excuse Ben, I agree. But I am not trying to debate Bens personal life. I am trying to debate whether or not Ben is "one of the good guys". When he said that he wasn't talking about Juliet or Goodwin. He was talking about himself and the Others when asked who they were.

Ben lives in a different world with different rules & values & laws & faithes. On top of all of that, he is the leader. I think we can only truly judge Ben if we understand his situation. Just because he shows no remorse doesn't mean he doesn't feel any remorse.

He is in a position where being weak would be considered bad or 'not good'. So in order for anyone to fairly judge Ben or the Others you would have to see things from their prospective. Even if you don't agree with it. Even our Losties rules and values have changed. I only say this as a comparison to hopefully prove a point. Ben and his followers don't have a judge and jury to answer to. Its us vs. them on the island. Every camp for themselves. Ben has to protect his camp. The only reason he pretended to be Henry Gale was to gain insight and talk to a few people, but not to hurt anyone.

So why I am trying to avoid arguing with or against you LJ, I am trying to stress my point. No I can't find a situation where Bens actions were good, I can think of many where his actions justified a greater good. And that, to me, is the definition of good.

One for isntance would be when he kidnapped all of the children. Or when he sent his people to the beach to kidnap Sun and maybe Kate. Or when he told his people that there is a sub and a way off of the island (that was to supply hope), and bringing Juliet to the island, and kidnapping Alex and raising her, sending her away with her mother and her boyfriend, keeping Karl in a cage (to protect his daughter), trying to tell Jack that the people on the freighter were bad, kidnapping claire. There are many where to us as viewers his actions as island leader are questionable, but when you think about why he did those things, it was for the island and his people.

That is why he told Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Michael and Walt that they were the good guys. Because there was worse. Because they really had no intentions of hurting anyone. Because to them, with the values and laws that they live with, they are the good guys. And that is what I am debating anyways.

Point well made Hope about Ben living in a different world with different rules & values & laws.

That said, Ben has been canned as the island's leader and Alpert's less-than-happy reaction during his reunion with Ben in the finale shows that there is not a lot of love there for Mr. Bug-eyes.

Also, Alpert and other Others have been planning to get rid of Ben since the third season.

So since Jacob/the island and the Others want him gone, would this not suggest that even they do not consider him a "good guy"

And, yes, he did tell Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Michael and Walt that he and the Others the good guys, but he also told Locke, for example, that he had no idea what the smoke monster was (he did) At least he is a good liar.

No, I don't agree. I think that maybe his time was up is all. Locke, the man that Alpert has been grooming since birth is finally there. He is just ready for Locke. Bens time is up is all. I just think that Alpert is ready to put all of his trust in Locke. Which hopefully we have all seen by now is running around begging the likes of Jack and Kate to come back and help him make it right. So it would seem as though Alpert is wrong. And besides, Alpert has never been cast in a leader light. He is just the man that seems to defy time. I just think that he is the one who trains the new leader. He was the first to see Ben on the island and we have all seen him visit John as a new born.

And I don't think that you can say that the rest of the others have been ready to get rid of him, because they all seem to still do what he says willingly and whole heartedly. I also think that Jacob knows that Bens time is up because Locke is finally ready to step up.

But remember in the episode "The Brig" when Alpert gave Locke Sawyer's file. He said something to the effect of "Ben is distracting us with fertility issues...some of us are looking for a change" That tells me that it wan't just "Locke's time" but that Ben was making bad choices and was losing his effectiveness as a leader.
This dialogue tells me that replacing Ben was not a matter of fate or destiny (a groomed Locke ready to assume the leadership) but a simple management decision

In every government or monarchy there are people who don't like who is in charge. Those same people generally think that there are better ways that things can be accomplished, this doesn't mean that they are right or that they carry any real pull. (Geez, I hope that makes sense)!!

And yes he lies. I lie, my husband lies, my children lie. Every body lies. He was trying to keep what little power he had left over Locke for as possible as he could, that is why he lied about the smoke monster. I dont think that he had anything to gain by telling the losties that they were the good guys. And whether he meant it or not, whether they are or they are not is what we are debating.

I do think that the island would say that Ben has done a good job, even if his time is up. Even if the island gave Ben cancer. The island would probably say that Ben has served it well. I just think that it is time for a new leader. Maybe some where it says that one can only lead for a certain amount of time or something ( I know pure speculation).

I also think that Johns death proves that even the island/Jacob/Alpert can be wrong.

Again, I must say that I believe that the majority of his people and that the island would deem Ben as a good leader. Even in the end, Alpert helped Ben escape from Keamy. So whether he likes him or not, he respects him as the good leader that he was.

Man, I really hope that people can follow what I am writing. My thoughts are flowing so fast that I don't know if I am keeping true to them or not.

And maybe the cancer wasn't the island. Maybe the island can heal certain ailments. But it obviously can't help the pregnant ladies, so who is to say that it can help with everything. Even Jack got sick.

Maybe when you first arrive to the island it helps you, but then you are on your own. Then it is up to you to care for yourself. This actually has nothing to do with Ben being good or 'not good' I know. I am just trying to hopefully shed some light on the fact that we don't know all of the islands mysteries yet, and I don't think that it is fair to say "the island gave Ben cancer so he must be bad" because we don't know if the island gave him cancer or if it gave him Jack!! (which would of gaven Ben hope)

And I will put my own speculations in here because there are still lots of places where you have to fill in the blanks. I don't think it is wrong to assume that Widmore wants to use the island for personal gain, to know the lengths of which he will cover up the crash of 815 on the island i think speaks volumes about his character. We all found out in the season finale that behind and underneath the Orchid is a secret cave where "the frozen donkey wheel" is hidden, the one that can move the island in time and in space.

So yes, none of this has been proven and this is a debate, but I am trying to have fun with it.

and Ben is good. Hehe, had to throw that in there. I swear its the cold medicine!!

So quick question...we have 12 hours left of open debate discussion right? Then the polling begins, right? (that will be the hardest part).

Hope, I think its more like 1 hour before voting begins...but I'm not certain. International time zones always mess me up. I need a frozen donkey wheel to fix that

Hope: Debate closes in 1 Hour 15 min approx:

Wow a man goes to bed and the debate goes mad.
AC Thanks for pointing out that I'm debating not hating (just made myself chuckle, so sad)

Latearlus - There is nothing personal, no offence was meant (at least not by me).

Now back to the Debate:
This may well be my last post before voting starts:

I think I've made just about every major point I wanted numerous times. So just a few other things to chew on.

Ben got cancer before Locke got to the island.

When Ben found out a spinal surgeon was on the plane, he didn't go to doctor fix it and ask. He manipulated him into the surgery.
BEN: Same way I get anybody to do anything. I find out what he's emotionally invested in, and I exploit it.

Juliet a fairly senior other 'hates' Ben

Tom and Richard totally ignored Bens orders when Locke was beating up Mikhail.

What did Ben do to the real Henry Gale?

Ben can control Smokey, the same Smokey that killed MR Eko.

Treesitter - Sorry didn't realise I'd missed one. He sent Alex away and that makes him good? She is his daughter being worried about somebody that you have brought up for 16 years when a lot of mad men with guns are running around is not really evidence of good. Lets remember as well Ben seemed to think that Alex would not be killed (under the rules) so it also doesn't quite add up.

My final input before going to bed.

Great work by both sides by the way.

Something has really surprised me in reading the arguments in this debate:

How could any person think that Ben is one of the good guys?!?!?!? Sure, he has done things to protect the island and he loves his daughter and all that but he has caused a man to die (Goodwin) because he was competing with him for the affections of a woman who can't stand him.

I mean it actually bothers me personally to a very great extent that such a person could even be remotely considered a good guy!!!!

Would Captain Kirk kill someone just becasue he was jealous over a woman? Hell no!

Did Han Solo blast Luke Skywalker after the junior Jedi got that big kiss from the princess? (before, of course, we found out they were related and got all creeped out) No he did not. In fact, after they told each other that they loved each other, Han offered to stand aside and not get in Luke's way if that was what she wanted. THAT is the action of a good guy!

But what did Ben do?

BEN KILLED ONE OF HIS OWN PEOPLE ON THE LONGSHOT OF GETTING INTO JULIET'S PANTS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!!

I had a pretty open mind on this topic when it began and in fact was leaning towards Ben being a good guy forced to make tough calls until I remembered why Goodwin died and what it said about Ben.

I want Ben to be one of the good guys but isn't this exactly what O.J. Simpson was accused of doing? Killing someone over jealousy?

If Ben is considered to be a good guy then we really need to redefine our ideas of what good is.

All the evidence shows that he is a really horrible human who has no qualms about killing innocents. To hell with the reasons why he kills, he does it with no remorse.

I liked Hope's arguments for Ben but they just seemed like they were saying 'come on everybody, you want Ben to be a good guy too so just overlook the facts and we'll all have a big drink of the "ben is a good guy kool-aid"'

I like Ben but really...is this the kind of guy you would like to have as a boss or a friend?


In closing: Good luck to both LJ and Hope. I enjoyed this one.

Actually, this debate did make me remember about Goodwin snapping Nathan's neck in cold blood. Events since have convinced us Goodwin was an innocent nice guy - despite conducting an affair, lying about working with toxins in The Tempest (what was he up to!?) and, as mentioned, murdering an innocent man.

The only reason Goodwin ended up dead was because he pursued Ana Lucia for longer than advised. To that effect, how can Ben really be blamed for killing him?

Maybe you just want him to be blamed because you want him to be a bad guy? Imagine that!

AC I posted Ben's conversation with Juliet where she says why did you do it and he says because you're mine. Cant believe you are still trying to twist it. Goodwin was one of Bens people that is how they operate. Remember Ethan, he and Goodwin where both acting on your good guys orders.

OK debate is over and the poll is added its time to vote everybody.

Thanks to all who helped make this an interesting and slightly heated debate.

Good luck to Hope in the poll.

well thank you everyone for all the fun. all i can say is that when a topic can cause this much fire, it must be a good topic and to think that I had a hand in it awesome. thank you everyone!!!

Ok, the debating is done and i'm going to vote for..... Lojozz. Surprised? I was too. I think that Ben had to be bad to save the island. This debate is whether Ben is a good guy or not. He is definatley not a good guy. But he's not bad either. But I think Lojozz argued better. So congrats Lojozz. You got my vote.

TheHolyStickman

Thanks stickman I was beginning to think everybody was going to vote in secret

Im voting for Hope. I really do know that logically, and going by his actions, Ben can't possibly be a good guy. But I can't help believing Hope and feeling that he really is. I have warmed to him throughout the whole of Season 4 and think that he does some things we could not understand.....for the greater good. I am an emotional thinker, not logical, and emotionally I believe him to be a good guy for all the reasons Hope argues

Ultimately I come down to the point that Ben is a good guy that's done bad things. So I vote for good guy. I vote for Hope.

Well this is looking like I'm gonna need a miracle. So I'm getting ready to pass this lovely Avatar.