POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

Stitch

AC we are not debating if any of those other people are good guys we are debating if Ben is a good guy.

You can not say killing your father in cold blood without any remorse is good - no way.
You can not say showing Juliet Goodwins body the way he did (regardless of 'making up' stories about what Goodwin might have done) was good.
You can not say killing Keamy was good. They happily captured the Losties and kept them in cages, why couldn't he have done the same.
You can not say his reaction to causing the freighter to blow was good.
I could go on.

I have still not been given one tangible piece of evidence that shows Ben is good. Not one single thing he has done in the 3 season we have seen him can be described as good.

Ben does not exist in a vacuum. We cannot view him in isolation, nor his action, and hope to arrive at any level of conclusion over whether he is good or bad.

I know that's what you want to do, because then you can get all puritanical about good and bad, but that's not how the world, or Lost, works.

Goodwin snapped a man's neck in cold blood. A man he knew was wrongly imprisoned. He could have let him go. He didn't. That makes Goodwin bad. (So Ben's treatment of him, probably knowing more about Goodwin than Juliet ever did, doesn't seem so bad!)

Ben's killing of Keamy, the man who killed his daughter and then taunted him about how she "bled out". . . Instead of Alex, imagine it's your wife. Do you want to put Keamy in a cage or do you want to stab him in the neck?

Don't get me started on that piece of work that is Roger Linus. (A 'murder' already nullified by Alpert and The Others' involvement anyway.)

My point with all the other people I mentioned was they have done far worse, far less justifiably, yet you have no truck with labelling them as good people. Why? Because you understand why they did what they did. Your failure to understand why Ben does what he does is just that: your failure.

You condemn a man for your own failure to comprehend. Puritanical indeed.

You say you don't have one piece of evidence that he has done anything good. I say Ben's actions will prove the great majority of everything he did was for a greater good.

I'm not sure who you are debating with AC but you once again fail to address my points and argue the ones you make up.

My point with all the other people I mentioned was they have done far worse, far less justifiably, yet you have no truck with labelling them as good people. When did I label these people good? What are you talking about?

"Your failure to understand why Ben does what he does is just that: your failure." We have no evidence to know why Ben does what he does.

"I say Ben's actions will prove the great majority of everything he did was for a greater good." I hope you are right because that is how I would like the show to go, but it is not relevant to this debate.

Just give me an example of something good Ben has done. Something that you can say hand on heart in that one instant he was the good guy. Let alone labeling him has a good guy full stop.

Yeah yeah. . . you avoid my points, I avoid your points, and so goes this little dance of ours.

I think I've laid out more than enough reasoning as to why Ben is good. You've just continued to repeat the same accusations over and over like an unreasonable, hardline puritan - ignorant to context and motivation and unknown justification.

If you just watched Jack kill Edward Mars, smothering him in his tent, you'd label Jack a killer and a bad person. Ignorant of Mars being terminal, and Jack doing him a favour and easing his suffering.

I've said more than enough. You've just used a lot of words that amount to the same thing: not much.

How about this….
Let us first agree that the most important character in the show is the island itself. That is the main focus of this story. Jack, Ben, Locke, Kate, whoever, are all sub characters. Their interaction with the island, outside from flash/forwards/back’s is how we see these people and draw our conclusions about their character. Their inner-workings. Their motivation for being in this universe(of LOST).

I think Ben’s major motivation for turning the wheel(doing what he thought Jacob wanted him to do) was to ultimately save the island and all the people(native Others) that lived on it.
So far the only non-natives we have seen, other than the crash survivors, are Ben(as a kid), and Juliet.

We haven’t seen it yet, but I believe ever since his first vision of his mother, and his meeting with Alpert the first time, Ben has bided his time. Waited and waited and learned everything he could, about what the island was, from both Dharma and Alpert. (We know he had time to learn Hungarian, and Arabic in his spare time). Two sides of History. He chose to help Alpert because something Dharma was doing was ultimately wrong. He believed and trusted Alpert more. He believed that the Others cause was more just. And from what we have seen, became some kind of messiah to the Others. He purged the island of all Dharma (minus Kelvin and Mikhail and Danielle, but that is another argument all together right there) and the island became sole property once more to the natives. Plus they got some cool new clothes and houses and a power station… and a bunny multiplier.
Ben was doing what he believed was right. What he believed would bring peace to the island at whatever the cost.

We don’t completely know what Dharma was up to. But from what we have seen (orchid station not really a botanical garden) that they were covering up what their real research was.
Ben never had a real home. His dad was a total baboon sphincter. He never knew a mother outside of an old photo that he probably saved from his dad tearing up. Everything he knew about family and home came form the Alpert and the Others, who accepted him as one of their own.
I think everything Ben has done, was done to benefit his family at all costs. Breaking eggs to make an omelet.
Now this is all GOOD to Ben and the Others. But when the new crash victims get in the way… well they just get in the way, and they must be removed.

Then the rules break (that’s a good debate right there, “what the rules are”). And now he’s on a vengeance quest to get back at Widmore. Take Penny’s life first. Then get back to the island, something Charles couldn’t do. Maybe even take Penny back to the island with him. Just imagine Charles knowing that his daughter is with Ben Linus, on that island he can never find again.

But, yeah, I think Ben is the good guy, but a good guy that does what needs to be done.
(think Dirty Harry, Die Hard,)

Anywhos… Back to what I’m paid to do…

AC if only you'd got this involved in your own debate, you may have won. Still no instances of Ben doing a good thing then?

Lateralus - Even with this scenario Ben would surely have been corrupted. Corruption in my book is not good.

Question: Why does every argument for Ben as a good guy contain something along the lines of 'we haven't seen it yet, but'
Answer: We haven't seen him do a single good thing and all the speculation in the world can not prove Ben to be a good guy.

I have believed many things about this show since day one, some have been right most have been wrong, so I'm not buying 'I believe we will see' as a valid argument.

Corruptd by who? His dad that told him for years he was a worthless turd that should have died at birth?
From what we have been shown, THAT is Bens life pre island. THEN he gets dragged to this wacky island where he sees his dead mom, and new people willing to take him in as family because they know he is special in some way.
So his new family, the one that accepts him, becomes the good side. Dharma and everything else that has "invaded" his new home is the bad side. Ben is doing was is GOOD for the island. His home. Sure Alpert and the gang may be evil as the Manson family "but we havn't seen that yet". All we have seen them do is try and protect their home. And protect it by any means necessary. Now maybe his family corrupted him. Corrupted him to believe that the island, and Jacob, is what is good and right. But doesn't every family do that same thing? Who chose the church you went to? You or your parents?(not getting churchy personal here).
Anyway, i think everything Ben does is right in his own mind because it is right for the island.
Everything Ben does is GOOD for the island and the others. Everything Ben does is BAD for the O-6 and freinds.

Corrupted by wielding the power of the island.

Just because its right in Ben's mind does not make it good and does not make him part of 'the good guys', this just leads us back to Ben being a sociopath.

So the way you protect your home is to kill indiscriminately just in case? If they hadn't got into such a battle with the Losties then their home would not be at risk in the first place. The island would not have been found. Bens power trip over the Losties is why he now has to leave it. So if your argument is that he is a good guy because he protects the island, then I say he's done a pretty bad job, its because of his actions that freighter dudes found the island.

Ben... a good guy? Yes, I think so, for all aforementioned reasons.

Lojozz, you kept asking for something good Ben has done. Apart from what Lateralus just said here are some more examples:

Lockedown:
Right after the alarm stopped Ben went back to the injured Locke. He
was unattended and could have left the Swan Station. But he didn´t. He
came back for John.

Live Together, Die Alone: Ben let Michael and Walt go. (At least for once) we have seen him keeping his word.

Meet Kevin Johnson:
Ben urges Alex to flee Locke´s camp so she would be save from the
mercenary´s attack. (He didn´t know, that Alex would run right into the
assailants.)

Speaking of Alex: His intentions in
brainwashing Karl were to play safe his daughter wouldn´t get knocked
up. Okay, his measures may have been drastic but his agenda was keeping
Alex save.

The Shape of Things to Come (transcript taken from lostpedia):

(John turns to go with Sawyer. Ben stops him.)

BEN: It's very important that you survive what's about to happen here, John. So I need you to stay
close to me.
LOCKE: And why would I do that?
BEN: Because the people that are coming won't risk hurting me. You want to live? I'm your best
chance.

Unless we learn differently in the next season he seems to be concerned about Locke´s survival.

All
the actions regarding Locke have a purpose, you could reply. Maybe even
a strategic one. Why did he stay in the Swan Station? To manipulate
John? To cast doubt in his faith? To question his specialty? There
could be similar intentions in keeping Locke within sight during Shape
of The Things to Come? Yeah, could be! But, behind these intentions could be even bigger ones, intentions for the greater good.

Last but not least... Goodwin:
Sure, he wanted him as far away from Juliet as possible, which
ultimately led to Goodwin´s death. Well, as Benjamin Linus said:
"Sometimes... good command decisions get compromised by bad emotional
responses." He is a human being (well, as far as we know.) Ben
certainly is more of a strategist but, even he has emotions. Sometimes
feelings can easily distract you. And um, I think the more you are a
thinker the lesser you can handle emotions.

oh wow, I feel horrible. I haven't been around for my own debate and AC has picked up my slack. not to make excuses for myself but I am dead sick, so sorry.

LoJozz how did Bens actions lead the freighter to the island. The way i see it is that when the Swan Station exploded and there was the EMP blip, that is what lead them there. I mean if Penny is watching for that kinda stuff, then Widmore is probably doing the same darn thing. Manipulation can't be the total cause, John and Desmond still have their own thoughts, they can still make their own decisions. Are they bad?

How can you say that turning that wheel wasn't him sacrificing himself? He was heart broken, he knew that his position had been filled, he knew that Jacob is the one who wanted Ben to do this. There was no one down there to see Ben shed some tears, that was all him. And who is to say that jacob doesn't always have a plan? Maybe he wanted Ben off of the island to help there? Again, we don't know the whole story, so I don't think it is fair to say that Ben is a bad guy. We haven't seem him do anything that was a bad decision for the island.

If your home was being invaded by people that you knew were there to exploit it somehow, what would you do? Find out what you can about who are up against maybe? Possibly find out what the want? Then when you find out that their intentions are bad, and they are kncoking down your door with guns in hand, what would you do, protect yourself and your loved ones? I don't know, but that seems like the kinda situation Ben and the Others are in.

And isn't a bad person someone who does mean things just to do them? That bad person doesn't care about the end result. Usually a bad person does things to cause hurt and pain for no reason. I know that we are not arguing if Ben is bad, but being that Bad and Good are opposites, then if he is not bad, doesn't that make him good? Even if it isn't your definition of good, that doesn't mean that he is bad!

"its because of his actions that freighter dudes found the island."

What did Ben do to make the freighter come to the island? The island was hidden and things were going pretty well until the Oceanic survivors showed up.

815 disappeared, Widmore faked the wreckage, mounted his own search to find the island, and hired mercs to kill everyone and capture Ben. Short of bringing a gun along and shooting Jack, he does everything he can to keep that freighter away.

And its not like Ben is fighting his neighbor for his front door parking space at his apartment complex. This is THE island. The place where miracles happen. A place that if it fell into the wrong hands(Widmore) the world could be in trouble. More than just pawns are at risk in this battle.

Things were ok, we assume, till Dharma shows up. The natives purge Dharma. Things get back to normal. Desmond in Widmores race shows up, Henry Gale in Widmore’s balloon shows up. 815 survivors show up and Widmore covers it up. Now stuff starts hitting the fan.
The others take the “good” survivors(that’s another debate right there) and let the rest fend for themselves. They don’t kill them, they have the means to, but they put on costumes and try and scare them away. And he takes Danielle’s baby and leaves her alone in the jungle. He doesn’t kill her. He just lets her fend for herself and scares her away. And save for running into Keamy, I think Alex turned out a little better than she would have been in the jungle with a crazy lady.

It reminds me of Dances with Wolves. Costner’s character is abandoned by his own people, and is welcomed into the Sioux tribe. When the Union Army comes around and finds him, he fights against the Army on the side the Sioux. For his new family, to protect his new home. He kills a bunch of US Army guys, but do we care as viewers? Heck no, he’s the hero of the movie.

How about when the Rebels blew up the second Death Star? It wasn’t even completed yet. That means that there were all kinds of private contractors on board that were only trying to put blue milk and Bantha bacon on their family’s table. Plumbers, electrician’s drywall guys. Do you think your average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? Does that make the Rebel Alliance bad for killing all of the innocent lives even though it meant galactic liberation?

Yeah, I stole that last bit.

Man do I feel like a lone voice in this!

Treesitter none of those examles show Ben as good he had ulterior motives in all of thise things, they were not acts of goodness they were acts of manipulation.

How do Ben's actions lead to the island being found? Well lets look at at the Lockedown example sited by treesitter. He told Locke that he did not enter the code, this lead Locke to not enter the code and the Swan to implode which allowed penny to locate the island. Can anybody deny this is an action by Ben that lead to the island be located?

Secondly this loveable rougue Ben put an implant in Claire that allowed his people (Juliet) to infiltrate the Losties. It was Juliet who told them that the Looking Glass was blocking the signal. The losties would not have know about this otherwise, and the Mercs would not have been able to get to the island. Strike two for an action of Bens allowing the island to be found.

So the two main things that lead to the island being found only happened bacause of Ben's invovlement. For a man who always has a plan and is supposedly the islands great protector this seems a little off to me.

While we are on the subject of Juliet infiltrating lets not forget this was to facilitate the stealing of any pregnant women, and if the tents aren't marked well hey just bring all the women and if anybody gets in your way kill them. Sounds like a good guy speach to me!!

Hope I said that you could not consider Bens sacrifice as having similarity to Jesus. Ben only left the island and in all probablity will end up back there. Jesus was tortured and died on a cross to save mankind (If you believe that sort of thing). His heart did seem to be broken but that is only because he had to give up his power.

I am still waiting for one tangible example of Ben doing something good. How can you all argue that Ben is a good guy whithout a single example of him doing a good act.

Hope, I hope you feel better soon btw.

At this point, I'd have to say Ben is not a good guy.

He may be working with the good guys (now) but that does not make him good.

Ben, if anything is a morally "Neutral" guy. Bad or good is not really a factor in his mind, just what is right or wrong for the island.

This fits nobody's definition of good guy and certainly not mine.

I really like Ben's character. but we are not voting on how much we like him...we are voting on him being a good guy.
Is Ben a bad guy? Maybe not.

Is Ben a Good guy? No way. At least not by any measure that matters in the real world that any of us would use.

Nice one MSHL. Thanks, I was begining to think I was all alone on this.

what did juliet telling the losties about the looking glass have to do with ben? that was all juliet playing double agent. Ben was suprised to know that Charlie had infiltrated the Looking Glass. He was hurt and upset that Juliet double crossed him. So really, it was Juliet that helped the freighter. But didn't Naomi find the island just fine. And didn't Frank drop her off there? So in reality the freighter already knew about the island. Naomi was their first option, when the people on the freighter found out about Naomi failing her mission, that is when Faraday, Charlotte, and Miles were delivered to the island.

I think he already knew that his time as leader was up. He was accepting that, slowly, but he was. He was upset because he knew that he would be leaving, that he would no longer be the one to protect the island. And he did not hesitate once once he knew what had to be done. He did it.

The taking of the pregnant women, yes seemed cruel. He seemed cold and calculated. But he is trying to find a way to populate the island. if everyone dies without little ones around, who will be there to protect the island?

Also, we don't know the faith and values of the people of the island. They may demand their leader to be decisive (?), calculating, and ahead of the game. They may have charged him with solving the pregnancy problem, or he may be the one held responsible for the pregnant women dying. If there are pregnant women that may help his research and his people, wouldn't his people expect him to do something?

That is why i said that being a leader is tough. you have to make hard decisions that your people expect you to make. He doesn't have to fulfill all of their needs, but he does have to fulfill the important ones.

Oh and do I need to remind you that Jack is the one who set up the attack on the others, and it is the others who were killed, every last one of them, not a single one of the losties!! And who is to say that that wasn't part of the plan, set up by Ben and Juliet, one that Juliet was okay with.

And isn't doing what is right make you good? And, this is the island which isn't like anything in the real world, so the rules have to be changed a little bit.

oh and thanks LoJozz i hope too

First off I would just like to say that, Lost must truly be a great show. As the man who has been set up to be the bad guy for three sesons, we're not even sure if he's good or bad. That really amazes me.

Also, Lojozz, sorry but this post is against you, I will try to take your side in the next one. but you appear to be doing fine.

Is Ben a good guy? Thats a pretty broad question. You have to take into account all the bad things he's done to people. If they deserved it. What the circumstances were. What the consequences are. So I'll try but I can't cover everything.

One accusation against Ben is that he Pathologically lies. This derives from when Ben was in the swan and being kept prisoner. He told all the losties that he was Henry Gale. Why? Because the losties weren't that fond of the others at that ponit. If he had told the truth, He would have been killed or tortured.


Another is that Ben was jelous of Juliet and that he sent Goodwin to his death. Now I'm not going to deny his intentions, it was clear what Ben wanted to happen. But was Goodwin such a good person? No, he snapped and innocent man's neck. He didn't have to. he could have said something along the lines of. I'm gonna let you out, dont let Anna Lucia know, take some food and go out into the jungle. But no he snapped his neck. Also in a last desperte struggle he tred to kill Anna Lucia. Who he had told Ben so many times was a good person.


But Goodwin is not the only factor in this, no, not by a long shot. I believe this jelousey was driven by him losing Annie at some point. Ben still thinks of her, obviously, as he carries around the dolls that she gave to him on his birthday. If this girl was suddenly taken from him, it would leave a huge gaping lonley hole in Ben. All his life he had been neglected by his Dad. Blamed for his mothers death, forgetting his birthday ect. Suddenly Annie appears and makes him feel wanted and not so lonley. We saw that Ben had respect for Horace who brought him to the island. He closed his eyes when he died. So getting back to the point, he needs another woman in his life. But as described by Sawyer, he is a Bug eyed freak. Then big strong handsome Goodwin takes her away. This would have brought up some powerful emotions and memories. And we know the island can change people, magnify emotions and such. I think it's incredible that Ben didnt kill Goodwin flat out.

Ok, so even if discount the evidence above, if we say that Ben killed Goodwin flat out murder. Didnt Sayid kill an innocent man for Nadia, Didn't Kate kill her step Dad to save her Mum. Are these people bad? No I dont think you'd say they are. As Angelo Comet stated above, Its not just actions that make a man good or bad. But as Lojozz has repeatedly stated. Name one case where Ben has done something good. I'll admit he hasnt, but have his intentions been good. Yes. All he has ever tried to do is save the island, with some emotionally misguided actions.

Off the island, if Ben was caught he'd go to prison. But on the island things change. Jack pulled the trigger on Locke. Locke threw a knife in Naomi's back. Sawyer killed Tom. Even Happy go lucky Hurley ran over some others. Sayid killed some others as well. These are extreme circumstances. In some cases it was kill or be killed. Ben was under extreme pressure as the leader of the others, he's got a lot of power and some hard decisions to make.

I have presented you with all my thoughts and opinions, but do these make Ben a good or a bad person. At the moment I'd say Neither. He's not a good person. But he could redeem himself. But all I will say is that Ben is definately not a bad person.

TheHolyStickman

"Treesitter none of those examples show Ben as good he had ulterior motives in all of these things, they were not acts of goodness they were acts of manipulation."

People´s actions always aim for something. (As AC already said: The debate´s topic isn´t "Is Ben a
saint?") You simply suggest, that Ben´s doings are badly intentioned.

Just because John stopped entering the numbers shortly after Ben claimed he didn´t do so while the lockdown took place isn´t any evidence that this was what Ben intended. Locke started wondering but that is all. The orientation film of the Pearl Station caused John´s doubt. Everything else is just theory. Therefore I think coming back for John is something good Ben has done.

What about Alex? He wanted to save her whilst sending her, Danielle and Karl away. It´s an act of
goodness. You assume ulterior motives in that case? Well then, what could they have been? Right, you don´t know.

Lojozz, you take the liberty of negating every single example by guess work.

The key word is ulterior motives. You interpret them as bad, I interpret them as unknown. Because of that I give Ben the benefit of a doubt. He hasn´t done anything worse than other characters.

exactly treesitter. you can't judge ben as bad if you judge all of the losties as good. they are all in pretty much the same boat. In fact, more blood is on the losties side. I am not saying that now we should debate whether or not the losties are good or bad, everyone just assumes that because they are the victims that they are the good guys. If the others were cast in the "victims" light, would you assume that they are the good guys then?

When you judge a person as being good or bad you not only look at the actions that they took, but the intentions that that person had.
Say some one knocks on your door and says that they are there to fix the heater, and you have called someone to fix the heater so you let them in. That person fixes your heater, but while doing that he also steals your jewelry. If you were the person that let him in, you would think that his actions were good, he fixed your heater. But after you find out he also stole your jewelry, which is good, you learn that he only intended to fix your heater so he could steal your jewelry. So his intentions were bad. This may not be the best example, but you guys can kinda see what I am trying to get at (sorry the head cold and medication has me all foggy). Someone can have 'good' actions but have 'bad' intentions.

Ben has never really had bad intentions unless you count Goodwin, which was misguided I will admit. But I think that we are debating whether or not Ben is Good in relation to the island and the Losties. He hasn't really harmed any of them. His number one priority is protecting the island, and leading his people. Which he as done, good I might add. Proof of that is that his people are willing to perish for the island and for Ben. Generally people won't follow you into the fire unless they believe in you and your cause. So he has done his job good and done his people well. Even John has placed his trust in Ben and the island.

So LoJozz thinks that Ben is bad by his definition. I think that Ben is good because he follows his heart, protects his people, he has a reason for everything that he does and his reasons are all good. You have to put yourself in his place, on the island, where the rest of the world and their laws don't matter, and then judge Ben. If you were protecting the secret to a great power, one that would be catastophic if put into the wrong hands, then sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures, but that doesn't make a person bad.

OK why is this so hard for everyone. I have not stated that Ben is bad. The debate is whether or not Ben is a good guy, not if he's a bad guy. There is not a single shred of evidence to say he is good. By what we judge in the world there are many examples of him being not good.

"People´s actions always aim for something. (As AC already said: The debate´s topic isn´t "Is Ben a
saint?") You simply suggest, that Ben´s doings are badly intentioned." No I don't. I simply suggest that they aren't good intentioned, which is what the debate is about.

Treesitter when Ben told John he didn't enter the numbers what do you suppose he intended? We've seen what happens when the numbers aren't entered, we have to assume he entered them, so why tell John he didn't?

"Lojozz, you take the liberty of negating every single example by guess work." This almost offends me. Guess work? I have given numerous examples of behaviors that can not be considered good, remind of a simple example of anything that can be considered good.

"exactly treesitter. you can't judge ben as bad if you judge all of the losties as good" We are not debating the losties and I certainly have never tried to argue they are good, this has no relevance what so ever to this debate.


"The key word is ulterior motives. You interpret
them as bad, I interpret them as unknown. Because of that I give Ben
the benefit of a doubt. He hasn't done anything worse than other
characters."
Again I interpret them as not good, you state unknown. Well thats not good is it? I have not compared him to any other character because we are not discussing other characters."So LoJozz thinks that Ben is bad by his definition." Let me repeat again the debate is "Is Ben a good Guy?"

"I think that Ben is good because he follows his heart, protects his
people, he has a reason for everything that he does and his reasons are
all good." Tell that to Goodwin and Karl. His reasons are all good? Show me one I'm still waiting?

I'll put myself in his place, ok done that. I dislike my father, he's a drunk he's unpleasant never considered murdering him though.

"If you were protecting the secret to a great power, one that would be
catastophic if put into the wrong hands, them sometimes desperate times
call for desperate measures, but that doesn't make a person bad." - Now thats what i call guess work.

To quote MSHL "I really like Ben's character. but we are not voting on how much we like him...we are voting on him being a good guy.
Is Ben a bad guy? Maybe not. Is Ben a Good guy? No way. At least not by any measure that matters in the real world that any of us would use."

Crap, Lojozz, i'll just back away.

Sorry if some of us happen to disagree with you "Debate Champion". But if we don't take the opposition argument of "Is Ben a Good guy" how can we then debate with you, oh great "Debate Champion". Please, give us the rules. Should "Bad" be replaced by "not good" from now on in this debate?
Okay... Ben is a "Not good" guy.
Maybe I'm wrong but i thought theories were guess work? We are all stabbing at the dark here. Next season they could show Ben working as a Cotton Candy vendor at Six Flags and we would all be "OMG!!!,. WTF!!! Maybe the smoke monster is really Cotton Candy!!!!"

I never intended to offend.

You asked numerous times for at least one example where Ben´s action can be considered good. I offered some more, you shot them down...

except:

He sent Alex away for her safety. You simply ignored it. What intentions are behind that? I see just one: Alex safety.

Well, I never argued that the examples I gave negate all the other things you presented.

But, when I say "Ben went back to help Locke." you discount it with looking at possible intentions behind or around it. You refer to a bigger picture. Whereas, when you present one of Ben´s "not good" actions you dismiss the possibility of letting us looking at a bigger picture.

Certainly, you have an advantage because the picture you have painted is already on display while the film of the "Ben is a good guy" supporters is still in process.

Hey Guys,

I think that everyone needs to cool down. The debate topic has raised some very heated arguments and it looks like every possible angle has been covered.

The character of Ben, like lots of elements of Lost, is one that is best described as ambiguous. We may witness him performing some action but most times we are only left to guess what his motivation is.

Whether he is really a good guy or not may ultimately be never fully answered, maybe he is just a average person in terms of goodness or badness. In some situations his actions may be good and noble and in others his actions may be selfish and bad. But that is the truth for everyone.

I think that this debate has been interesting but I would hope that considering the arguments, counter-arguments, counter-counter-arguments, and everyone else's ideas, thoughts and suggestions, that now is the time for all of us to begin our individual decision making on who should be the debate winner!

Remember at the end of the process you need to vote for the winning debator, and that choice is between Hope and Lojozz.

I know who I am voting for, do you?

Stitch

Yeah, it seems as though everyone is fighting. I am trying my best not to attack my opponet, but simply to state my opinion of good vs bad. I happen to believe that Ben is good, not "not good" or bad or whatever. I believe this because what he is doing is protecting the island that we have all grown to love, and the losties, that we too have grown to love. I know that I am suppose to be arguing my point, and maybe I am not the best debater in the world, or here for that matter. But I believe that Ben is good. I believe that when you define a good person you do so by judging their character not their actions. So when you ask for an example of a good action, it is hard to find one I will admit (which doesn't help my case I am aware of that) but his character (not the person Michael Emerson is portraying) is good. He wants the greater good achieved. We see him doing things that are selfless (like turning the wheel and sending Alex, Danielle, and Karl away from the barracks). So if you ask me my opinion of good vs bad or not good, I honestly believe that Ben is the good guy.

Okay folks, the topic of this debate and, in fact, the debate topic title is "Is Ben a good guy"

The question is not is Ben a good leader or a good father or a good Other or if he does good THINGS, the question is "Is Ben a good guy"

And the answer has to be that he is not and (even if only for the following reason) he CANNOT be a good guy:

Ben used his power to get Goodwin killed simply for personal gain. He got Goodwin KILLED! That bears repeating: Ben used his power to get Goodwin killed simply for personal gain. He got Goodwin KILLED! No "good guy" would ever do that.

Like most men, I have had many situations in my 45 years on this planet where I have competed with others for the attentions of a woman. Did I manipulate the circumstances to get one of my rivals killed? of course not.

There is no way that anyone could consider someone who would do this as a good guy. And there is no justification in this action because Ben did this for personal gain only. This was not Jacob or the island telling Ben that Goodwin has to die so find a tricky way to do it. This was Ben trying to eliminate what he percieved as a romantic rival.

It wasn't done to protect the Others,
it wasn't done to protect the island.
It wasn't done to save the world.
Ben did it becasue he wanted and was obsessed with Juliet...THAT'S IT.

He arranged the death of a fellow member of his community, one who he has been entrusted to lead, just to get a girl!

Imagine what you would think if a friend of yours told you "Hey, I arranged for Jerry to get hit by a bus so now that he is dead I have a shot at going out with Linda." You would be horrified, sickened and terrified that you might be his next target! Would you think that he was a good guy? No chance in hell that you would.

So why in the world could you think Ben is a good guy when he did the exact same thing?

If you do, it is only because you badly want Ben to be a good guy, even when it is utterly clear that he is no more than a jealous and remorseless murderer.

I want Ben to be one of the good guys too, but that doesn't make him one.